Dave:
It does feel like everything in 2024 is incredibly expensive. The median home price is over $400,000 right now in the country. But what if I told you there were still options to buy cheap old houses for under a hundred thousand dollars? That is absolutely possible and is a really interesting strategy for all real estate investors to consider.
Hey, everyone, welcome to the BiggerPockets Real Estate podcast. I’m your host, Dave Meyer, and today we’re gonna be talking to Elizabeth and Ethan Finkelstein. You may know them from their very popular Instagram account, it’s called Cheap Old Houses, or their HGTV show by the same name. But we are gonna be talking with them about why investors shouldn’t necessarily overlook old houses, and how you as an investor might be able to find really great gems and some really unrecognized value if you’re willing to put in the work that comes with buying some of these older, cheaper houses. We’ll talk about why old home renovations are actually not as difficult as you think, and why restoring old homes has more value than just the dollars and cents that goes into it. So with that, let’s bring on Elizabeth and Ethan Finkelstein from Cheap Old Houses, Elizabeth. Ethan, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Ethan:
Thank you, David for having us Ahan. Mm-Hmm, . It’s quite surreal, David, for us to be on BiggerPockets podcast because we started an Instagram feed called Cheap Old Houses, and we never really thought that, you know, we would be on the BiggerPockets, uh, side of things with, uh, talking about real estate and how cheap old houses is transforming people’s lives into real estate owners.

Dave:
Well, it’s very cool. You guys have built a very impressive entire digital platform on this idea of cheap old houses. I’m curious, you know, this is an overlooked segment by a lot of investors and homeowners. So how did you guys get started with this specific niche?

Elizabeth:
Well, you know, just to say it’s interesting that it is an overlooked segment because, uh, you know, our, we lived in Brooklyn, New York, I guess 15 or so years ago, and you look at the neighborhoods that investors wanna be in now, and they’re all the neighborhoods that the artists moved into decades ago and preserved all the old houses. So in a way, it’s such a critical part when you think about investment of making sure that these communities maintain their character and they’re sustainable so that people continue to want to invest in. So I think ultimately it really is at the core of, you know, what makes neighborhoods great and why people wanna be there.

Ethan:
Yeah, and I think, I think really it was selfish for us, you know, Dave, I think we wanted to find a cheap old house that we could afford something that, you know, we could potentially pay cash in. I think I’m someone coming from the 2008 crash and wanting to just really like carve our own path and, and buying real estate has always been sort of for us, uh, a little bit of a financial, uh, freedom path. I think a lot of people look at these cheap old houses and they say, no, these are just money pits. You’re gonna be stuck in them forever if you’re on the investing side. Um,

Elizabeth:
Thanks Tom Hanks, , .

Ethan:
But you know, I think a lot of people really understand this. Um, and I think these houses were built with such character and unique features and old wooden floorboards and fireplaces and mantles. Yes, there’s gonna be problems if you want something turnkey, you know, we don’t necessarily think that this, these are maybe the, the best option for that, but for someone who is looking for their forever home and something that they can love and care for over their time of home ownership and a safe place to call home, we think this is the perfect solution and kind of a, a house hack to get into the housing, the housing market that we’re all dealing with.

Dave:
So Elizabeth, it sounds like you have somewhat of a personal connection to restoring old houses, is that right?

Elizabeth:
I grew up in a cheap old house that my parents restored, so I watched their relationship strengthened through bonding over their shared love of this house and this house. I think, and this has literally nothing to do with finance, so forgive me for a hot second. , um, unless you consider, uh, you know, um, all the money that would take to get divorced if you didn’t find something you loved doing together, . But they, they, they did, they loved this house and they nurtured it and it became very much of my identity growing up. So it really was natural that I, that I did this. Um, and then I moved to New York City, which is very different. I mean, when you talk about preserving old houses, you have to really consider where you are, where you live. The issues I was facing, working and working and restoring old houses in New York City are very different than where we live now, which is very rural in New York City. There’s such a land grab, everybody wants a piece of it. So people who are interested in preserving old houses very infrequently have a seat at the table. Um, it’s, it’s usually the last thing that’s considered, even though as I said before, I think the idea that so many people want a piece of so many of the wonderful neighborhoods in New York City is precisely because years and years ago, people fought to keep them beautiful and keep them very livable places.

Dave:
Alright, so your brand is called Cheap Old Houses. Let’s define this for a minute. What does cheap mean to you?

Ethan:
Cheap means, uh, primarily under $150,000. Okay. You know, we started this, uh, looking at a hundred, a hundred thousand dollars as being the price point, and it’s kind of crept up a tiny bit. Um, you know, I think we wanna be able to have, we wanna be able to show people amazing mansions that are for sale, uh, that with all the original character left in it, or we wanna be able to show someone, uh, a cabin outside of Palm Springs in California. And so we want to be able to have that diversity of, um, where number lands. But I think, you know, I think under a hundred thousand dollars is pretty fair, um, as an assessment for or under $150,000

Dave:
That is, uh, that is definitely cheap by today’s, uh, standard. So I have to agree with you there. And what is old to you?

Elizabeth:
We show everything up to mid-century modern because we find that people really are interested in mid-century modern houses. Old I, I’ve started to really think of old as character. If there was an amazing house from 1975 that was all wonderfully tacky, uh, and meant sort of perfectly preserved in a time capsule, I would probably post that because I think it’s pretty cool. But for the most part, we go up through the 1960s.

Dave:
Okay.

Ethan:
And houses, I will just add Dave, we do any kind of built structure, so if there’s something that’s affordable, um, we don’t do land just primarily land, but we’ve done a lighthouse, we’ve posted power stations, we’ve posted jails, banks, um, all sorts of built structures that are really, really affordable. And they’re all available on our Instagram feed on cheap old houses. Uh, we post them every day, just houses in general and then on newsletters and yeah. And now we’re showing on our new HGTV show how to restore these places and just make it happen. .

Dave:
Okay. So $150,000 is very compelling price in today’s market, but once you account for renovation costs, I’m curious if the math still works out. Ethan and Elizabeth walk us through the case for old homes as investments after the break. Welcome back investors. I’m here with Ethan and Elizabeth of cheap old houses. Let’s jump back in. And you said Ethan earlier, that the, the goal here is that the dollars and cents may have to work here, and obviously this show is a show for real estate investors. So tell us why an investor should consider buying a property of this age, uh, and at this price point, rather than looking for something that’s more modern or a bit more turnkey of an investment.

Ethan:
I think the biggest thing that you can’t replicate in terms of an investment piece that Elizabeth always goes gaga for are this is the stuff that you would have to build new again. So if there’s, if it’s built with stone, the house is built with stone, or if there’s a grand staircase, or if there’s an amazing mantle, you know, a staircase of in, in some of these historical houses would cost 50 to a hundred thousand dollars alone for a fine carpenter to create and make. So we’re advocating for saving these old pieces inside of these buildings, um, whether or not they’re kind of rotted because to redo some of these things, you’re actually saving money to make something as grand as it once was.

Elizabeth:
I think this may shift sort of in the mid-century period and forward, but before that, we were building things not with prefab materials, with materials that could be restored, that could be fixed, and with maintenance can last forever. So if you have vinyl windows in a house, you’ve gotta throw those in a landfill every 15 years. Wood windows can be consistently replaced. Repaired wood is a material that is meant to be fixed over and over and over again. So old houses naturally come having been built with materials that can be repaired and don’t have to just be

Ethan:
Thrown out. I think, for example, I mean we all saw the lumber spikes a few years ago. It’s kind of a perfect example of using the materials that are already in these houses. Windows, for example, they are getting wicked expensive, whereas with an old house, you have that window and you reglaze it and you bring it back to life. And that’s going to, it’s already there. You’re not buying materials and you’re now just spending some money on labor. And, and then what you’re also doing is you’re putting money in your local economy and you’re keeping the craft alive of keeping these old houses alive. And that’s really, really important in terms of building strong economies and, and building jobs in a, in a local environment.

Elizabeth:
Yeah, I mean, you know, if you ultimately, if this was just solely about the bottom line, we would not be doing this. It can absolutely provide a return on your investment if, if done well, but we honestly believe that if you do something in life, your greater cause and your purpose has to also give back. And we think we found a really good balance in that way. And if you’re the kind of investor that is interested in making sure that your community remains sustainable and beautiful and livable, I think this is for you.

Dave:
Yeah. I, I mean, you make a case both financial and sort of societal and communal for, for making these types of investments. Do you have any ideas or thoughts on how fixing up a really old house might compare to fixing up a new house? Just in terms of like time and budget? I know you guys focus on this, but have you ever thought about sort of the trade off, um, between newer and older houses?

Elizabeth:
It is so dependent on what came before you. So if you have, we live, the, the old house we live in right now was well maintained and it was built with clearly superior materials than you could buy today. And it is solid now. I think the biggest problem with old houses that people generally find over and over is that whoever came before them didn’t maintain it. Well, these materials, if maintained will be fine. It’s not the old house itself, it’s the lack of maintenance that’s been in it. New houses are the same way. Um, so I would say that, you know, new houses, many new houses I think are built of poorer quality more quickly, of sort of less, uh, quality materials. So there’s that trade off. Um, you could buy an old house that is cheap because it needs an entirely new foundation, which is gonna be an issue.
Or you could buy an old house that’s cheaper because maybe it’s just in an area where the prices are never gonna, it’s never gonna command a super high price, but it’s a perfectly solid little bungalow from 1920 and is not falling down. So I think it’s very hard to throw all of these in a bucket. And I think it is very specific to the case. For instance, if a roof has not been looked at and there are water issues in the house, that’s gonna be something that may have seeped into other areas. And, you know, it’s, it’s just, I think the mistake a lot of people make is they think all old houses are gonna be a huge money problem and new houses, I guarantee you, with the rate at which new houses are going up in 50 years, we’re gonna have a major maintenance crisis on our hands because I don’t think they’re built as well as they used to be.

Ethan:
Yeah. And I, I think from an infrastructure perspective only, I think it’s case by case. You have to look at the right old house, but from a new house perspective, you have engineer fees, you have architect fees, you might be buying a plan doing new, you’re, you’re paying for septic, you’re bringing the electrical in, you’re bringing all the materials in, you have to frame, is it quicker? I think it definitely can be. Um, it’s

Elizabeth:
Provided materials are available, which has been a huge

Ethan:
Issue recently has been issue. Um, they’re coming down in price. So it’s, it’s definitely helping a lot. Um, I think where the old house helps is if you can find one with a great foundation with a septic that’s working with electrical and an electrical panel that’s already in there, uh, with amazing framing with a decent roof that can last you five, 10 years, you’re saving a ton of money kind of day one is my thinking, uh, from an infrastructure perspective, because you’re not bringing all that stuff in new, um, yes. Is there maybe demo costs? Yes. Is there a lot of, um, different kind of processes? Absolutely. Um,

Elizabeth:
And sometimes it’s labor versus materials. So for, we have a farmhouse that we’re restoring and it had all of its original siding on it. Now to take all that siding off, throw it in a landfill and buy new siding, that would be of less superior quality. We could have done that and it probably would’ve cost us the same in materials. We decided to spend that money on labor. And what we did is we employed a local craftsman to do that for us. So the money went to him instead of going to Home Depot or wherever we were gonna put it, which made us feel good. And at the end of the day, it clocks out the same. Mm. So there are definitely things that might cost more, but there are also things that are great and it’s really amazing to have siding from the 17 hundreds on our house.

Dave:
Yeah, that’s super cool. So talk, talk to me a little bit about the community. You guys have built this, uh, really impressive community up over the last couple of years. What type of people do you think are best suited to take on these projects? Because they do sound in some ways, like a labor of love, um, and you need to commit the requisite time energy to it. So like, who succeeds with this approach?

Ethan:
I think really getting your priorities straight first and knowing what you can do. Have someone advise you if you’re not super savvy, if this is your first time, make sure you go through it. If you live in a cold climate, if there’s heating in this place and there’s a bathroom, you’re gonna be way better off than a place that doesn’t have those amenities.

Elizabeth:
I think our audience by and large are not necessarily, oh, I’m sure there are a lot of people on in our audience who like to buy up a bunch of properties and, and turn them over. I think that our place in this world, and this is both for old house restoration and for people just looking for houses to invest in, is very much for people who maybe just feel completely closed out of all of this and wanna get their foot in the door. So when we say cheap, we mean closing costs, right? Like so that you can get in the door and it might take you five years to have that kitchen that you want, but that’s okay because you’ve gotten the house and you’re in the door and you can take your time. So it is kind of a take your time type thing. So I think the ideal person that is interested in what we do are people that never have considered this before and never thought they could access this housing market, but suddenly here’s something that they can have and that feels really good to them. So it’s sort of, it’s people that might not be super savvy investors, but people who are really trying to just get that one first break and then they feel they can learn along the way.

Ethan:
Is that what you mean? I think, I think what’s also an interesting just maybe story is, you know, most of all of our staff actually, um, on cheap old houses have purchased cheap old houses. And that’s kind of just a cool success story within itself. So our third episode on who’s afraid of a cheap old house on HGTV is a focus on Christiana. And Christiana has worked with us for 10 years and she bought, she and Nick bought a $99,000 church and they were a, and they also bought this little vestry, the little side house that went with it. And they were able to live in that side house while they were working on this church with us. And she was able to actually mortgage the side little house and the church was sort of a liability. And she went from paying $2,000 a month or more in Brooklyn to paying something like $500 a month of a mortgage to buy this cheap old church.
And she has like a 15 year mortgage or something. Um, that was just what the lender required her to do. So she was able to reduce her rent payments and now she’s investing in her future fixing up this cheap old house. And it turned out pretty fantastic. I have to kind of say it’s the coolest place, the world. It’s a very cool space. And, um, to say that you own a church from the 17 hundreds and you bought it for $99,000 and it’s now like your like rock and roll pad, like you get to like hang out in and like just, it’s, it’s a pretty cool thing. That’s

Dave:
Very cool. I have to say my, my grandparents did that actually that exact thing. They bought a church from the 17 hundreds, uh, and that’s where I grew up visiting them. There was like catacombs underneath the church and like, we used to go explore in there. It was so creepy. Oh my gosh, that’s so cool. Uh, but it was an amazing old place. Where was that? In Westbury, New York. Very

Ethan:
Cool. Yeah.

Dave:
That’s really cool. Wow. Yeah, they, they bought it like, I think back in the sixties. Yeah. I don’t even know what it was cost, but it was probably very little. It was like an abandoned old place back then, but it was very cool. So

Ethan:
Did that kind of like inspire some of your real estate love? Uh,

Dave:
I don’t know. It’s a, it’s a good question, but, uh, I, I think of that house very fondly and I do tend to buy old houses, not intentionally, um, but I guess I have bought a lot of houses from the, about the turn of the century, uh, in Denver and in Michigan. So, uh, yep. I, I haven’t been afraid of them, but I do know that a lot of real estate investors tend to shy away from them just because of the cost of renovation or the desirability from tenants. But I think if you’re, like you said earlier, Elizabeth, if it’s been well maintained, there’s no reason to be afraid of it. It’s just like, who owned it last and how well were they taking care of

Elizabeth:
It? And if you’re talking about the places you’re talking about further west than we live, you have these amazing neighborhoods of bungalows and Tudors. You know, my sister lives in Seattle and that’s, and I see them getting torn down right and left for new buildings and I’m like, my gosh, those, that era in construction was so solid. Mm-Hmm. , those buildings are so well built and I feel like for the most part they probably don’t need a significant amount of maintenance. So, and, and I, and I also feel that you’re probably finding you invest in those houses because those are the neighborhoods that people wanna be in that have those kind of houses and have that kind of character, which is something to say for those homes.

Dave:
Absolutely. I think one of the things when I’m looking for places to invest I look for are just the quality of the housing stock I mostly invest in, in Denver. You know, there are areas that were built in the seventies and not that there’s anything wrong with that, but the housing quality that layouts the charm of the neighborhoods the size of the lots tend to be less desirable in, uh, in my experience to renters than some of these older neighborhoods where you see these like beautiful old homes. You know, my first property I bought was from 1896. Um, it had these incredible, you know, all the old original like woodwork around the frames, you know, I’m not saying that that’s the reason people buy there, but it does when you walk around feel like a, a nice neighborhood to, to be in. And I always have had an easy time renting, finding renters in those types of neighborhoods.

Elizabeth:
I love that. Completely agree .

Dave:
Okay, we do have to take one more quick break, but we’ll get Elizabeth and Ethan’s advice on what to look for in an older property and what to DIY yourself first, what to hire out right after the welcome back to the BiggerPockets Real Estate podcast. Let’s pick up where we left off. Yeah, so one, one of the things I think that’s sort of come to mind, um, here, i i for our audience to think about is that what you’re describing here sounds ideal for what we would call owner occupied strategies. And there’s two of them that our audience usually works with. One is called house hacking. It’s kind of like what you were just describing with your colleague here, which is where you live in part, part of a property and rent out the other parts. Um, which can work really well for duplexes, quadplexes, uh, a lot of the properties I invest in are old, like Victorian homes that have been cut up into multiple units.
I don’t know if you guys see that a lot, but man, people were built just freaking huge houses back in the day. They were like 5,000 square feet. You could turn that into four really solid units. Um, and so that’s, that’s one strategy people can consider. But I think the, the other thing that’s super interesting here is something that we would call a live-in flip. And, uh, this is basically similar to what you guys are doing, which is sort of moving into a house and then fixing it up around you, which has a lot of benefits financially. The first is when you’re an owner occupant, you get better financing. And so if you were to go out and flip a house, uh, you know, you’re usually getting a hard money loan, which is quite expensive. If you do a, a live-in flip, you can get residential financing, which will get you a lower interest rate.
And you can also consider something called the 2 0 3 loan, uh, which allows you to wrap your renovation costs into your loan, which is really beneficial. And the other piece is that if you live in that property for two out of five years, when you go to sell that property, you don’t pay tax on it, which is a really big benefit as opposed to flipping another house. So, uh, I given everything that you’re saying about this being a labor of love and having meaning to both of you beyond just dollars and cents, I think it could work really well for investors who are considering doing a one of those owner occupied strategies.

Ethan:
Yeah. And we tend to find that this is one of their initial strategies in getting into the market, even as a small time investor or just, you know, knowing that houses are an amazing access to creating wealth for yourself and your family. And it’s, it’s hard out there though, totally. The, everything is getting more and more expensive. Many different areas are being priced out.

Elizabeth:
Yeah. And as far as we’re concerned, I mean a lot of the houses that we post are cheap because of the locations that they’re in. And I think COD Covid shot real estate prices up high, but Covid also made remote work a thing and now you can move to rural Illinois and live in that crazy old mansion and have your job . So it’s, it’s, it’s been really interesting to see how that’s changed things.

Dave:
It really has. And, uh, for everyone listening, one of the big dynamic shifts for the housing market was typically in, you know, the years leading up to Covid, you would see housing prices got faster in urban environments and that actually has switched. And we see now in suburban and even rural areas, uh, you see that housing prices have gone up faster. There’s no knowing if that’s going to continue, but that has been a trend, um, over the last few years. That is definitely something worth watching for, for any investors out there. So I’m curious, in, in your community, do most of the people do work themselves or are they hiring out the work to, uh, renovate these homes? It’s

Elizabeth:
A little bit of a mix.

Ethan:
Yeah. I think a lot of people do. I think a lot of people work in trades and we happen to know a lot of people who are in trades. So I think they’re doing work on their own houses. I think getting to know one or two things really, really well always can assist. Maybe it’s demo at first, maybe it’s just painting. Um,

Dave:
So not everyone has to be planing their own siding from the 17 hundreds. Right.

Ethan:
,

Elizabeth:
I definitely, I definitely feel that if you don’t feel you can do a good job on it, do what’s best for the house. I mean, I think there’s so much that, that, that is easier to do than we think that you could certainly DIY but we are not people telling you to do all your own electrical and do all your own plumbing unless you really know what you’re doing. Um, that there certainly are things that should be hired out. And we try to advise people if you’re coming at this, if you’re buying the house, if you’re buying a cheap old house, because that’s literally all you can afford to really prioritize what you figure out yourself and what you pay people for. And you should certainly pay people to do those things.

Dave:
I love that. I, that is something I talk about in real estate investing all the time. Not just in reference to renovation, but just like focusing on what you’re good at. And for me, when I first started investing, I tried sit, quote unquote saving money by doing a lot of this myself, and I wasted so much money. But more importantly, I, I wasted so much time that I could have put elsewhere into my life and it’s just not worth it. And so I think it’s really important to do what you said, like even if you are handy, doing everything yourself is probably not gonna be, uh, beneficial. And you should just really focus on what advantage you have. Like what can you do that you can do better than someone else? Um, and just focus on that rather than just trying to do everything in the name of saving some money.

Elizabeth:
Right. I think a lot of people in the old house restoration world feel that they’ve somehow failed if they haven’t DIY, everything , and I’m like, no, you probably shouldn’t actually . Well,

Dave:
I would imagine certain things do really require a different type of expertise. Uh, you know, I’ve had some situations with really old plumbing, like I’ve had a drain that a plumber said he’s never seen in whole career because it was from like 1925. You know, and there’s just certain things like that you don’t, you just don’t wanna mess with. Just call someone who, who has that expertise. Um, and then I’m sure there’s other things like cabinets, painting, whatever it is, those are things that are easily applicable from, you know, a skill set that you can take from any type of renovation and apply it to an old home.

Ethan:
For sure. I think, I think it’s fun to educate yourself and learn many components so you know, kind of what you’re talking about and can, to understand some of the price points and the time and the labor. I think that’s honestly probably missing from a lot of people is understanding how much time some of this stuff takes. And it’s like, why, why is this person charging me so much money ? It’s like, well you should try, try that out and see how many hours in time and how many people it takes. So I think, you know, I don’t, I don’t typically think that people are really out there to, uh, pull one fast over you. I, and I think it’s really, really, really fun to learn as you’re going and, and educate yourself. I think it’s a, it’s kind of a hobby for us at this point where oh,

Elizabeth:
Stripping paint and

Ethan:
Love,

Elizabeth:
Oh my

Ethan:
God, that is,

Dave:
I can’t understand that.

Ethan:
Talk about a waste of time being, it’s so, it’s a waste of time. You

Dave:
Found your colleague then’s always.

Elizabeth:
I know. It’s like my As SMR, you know, you know how like people love ironing, like that’s when the paint comes off. It’s so nice. Uh, I’m not saying it’s normal, I’m just saying it’s something I’ve learned I love in doing this. No,

Dave:
I, I understand. I truly like love Microsoft Excel. It’s like my happy place and people are like, what the heck is wrong with you? , you, you have a problem. But, you know, I’m just proud, happy that we’ve both found something that we enjoy doing. Our time that we find relaxing.

Ethan:
Totally.

Dave:
Alright, well do you, Ethan and Elizabeth, any last advice for anyone of our audience who’s considering jumping into the cheap old house universe?

Elizabeth:
Oh my gosh. I just, if you’re not following us, please do. We literally post these houses all day long. We have newsletters specifically devoted to farm houses for houses under $25,000 for houses that are like as cheap as a hundred thousand dollars, but under two 50 maybe in places like Denver or LA that maybe don’t typically ever command a price under a hundred thousand dollars. And we have cheap old houses abroad. So come on over, you’ll probably find what you’re looking for.

Ethan:
We also have our book and, um, tell a lot of stories about people doing this on their own, give tips and tricks in that book. We love creating that project. And our new TV show, who’s afraid of a cheap old house, is coming out on May 14th, and it’ll be airing a new house restoration throughout all of June and into July of this year. And we can’t wait to show you all those amazing structures. And yeah, I think, uh, if, if you’re not in the housing market yet, think about what Dave said. Think about your owner occupied place, getting a really cool, cheap old house for yourself and start to build your financial future.

Dave:
Very cool. And I saw that you guys recent, you were adding the international houses and I live in Amsterdam, so you find anything in the Netherlands, let me know. Oh,

Ethan:
Cool. I didn’t know that. That’s so cool. Yes.

Dave:
Yeah. Well, you guys should come over. We’ll go tour some cheap old houses in Europe. We’ll, we’ll have a good time. Oh my gosh,

Ethan:
That’d be so cool. That’s, that’s the next TV show we wanna do. All right,

Dave:
Cool. Well call me . All right. Well, Ethan, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us and uh, like they said, they have all sorts of exciting stuff coming out over the next couple of months, and we’ll make sure to link to all of it in the show notes below.