March 2025 Housing Market Update: Are Price Declines Coming?

March 2025 Housing Market Update: Are Price Declines Coming?

The housing market saw significant “softening” in February, with inventory rising, demand shrinking, and buyers regaining more control while sellers find themselves in a tough position. Why is this happening now, especially as mortgage rates continue to dip? With recession fears and economic tensions running high, Americans worry what’s coming next, causing much of the economy to shift. With price declines already happening in some markets and more potentially on the horizon, when is the right time to buy?

We’re back with a March 2025 housing market update, going over what’s happening in the national housing market, which states are seeing the hottest (and coldest) housing demand, what’s going on with mortgage interest rates, and why the market is noticeably softening.

But the real question remains: How can YOU continue building wealth while others fear the worst? Is this your “be greedy when others are fearful” moment? Dave is giving his take and sharing how he’s tailoring his own investing strategy in 2025.

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Listen to the Podcast Here

Read the Transcript Here

Dave:
Your real estate buying window is open. Well, maybe that’s right. The housing market is softening after several years of supreme seller power. Potential price declines can be a boon for real estate investors looking to negotiate, but they also create risk if you buy at the wrong moment. So which way is the housing market heading and how can you take maximum advantage in your own portfolio? Today I’m giving you my March, 2025 housing market update. Hey everyone, it’s Dave head of Real Estate investing at BiggerPockets, and if you know me, I believe being a successful investor is about learning and continuously improving on your skills. Things like deal finding, tenant screening, managing rehabs, all that stuff is super important. But you also need to understand the broad trends that are happening in the housing market in order to optimize your portfolio to find the best deals and to avoid any unnecessary levels of risk.
For this reason, I like to provide a summary of what is going on in the housing market and I also like to provide my personal analysis and read on the situation. I’ll even tell you what I’m thinking about and doing with my own portfolio. This is for March, 2025. So trends may be different if you’re watching this a little bit further into the future. Now I want to just say that I’ve been analyzing the housing market for a very long time. I’ve been an investor for 15 years. I’ve been working at BiggerPockets for nine and right now things are changing pretty much as quickly as they ever have and that makes it more important than ever to understand what’s happening for your own portfolio and achieving your financial goals. Alright, so let’s talk about this softening market and what it actually looks like in the numbers and of course what it means to you.
Now if you look at certain websites like Redfin, you’ll see that home prices are up 4% year over year according to what data they have collected and when they seasonally adjust it. When you look at some of the other data sources, there’s a source called the Case Schiller Index and that uses a different methodology where it basically tracks how the price of the same home change over time. And what you see when you look at the case Schiller is it’s much closer to flat. And so we’re probably in somewhere in between those two. There’s no perfect measure, but we’re probably flat-ish housing prices maybe up a little bit depending on what market that you’re looking at. So that is by no means any sort of correction or crash at this point. It’s also not really exciting data in terms of appreciation, but I think the important thing here is that the trend is just really flat or a little bit down.
We’re not really seeing appreciation or price growth start to accelerate again. And so this is just one of the reasons I’m saying that the market’s flat. Now to understand if this trend is going to continue or if we’re going to see the market reverse in some sort of way, we to dig in a little bit deeper, go one level lower to try and understand why the market is somewhat flat. And I always talk about this, but we have to do it. We got to talk about supply and demand. That’s what dictates prices in the housing market. And so we need to see what’s going on with supply, which is just how many homes are for sale at any given point or how many people are listing their homes. And we got to look at demand. How many people want to buy homes? Let’s start with the supply side.
There’s really good data about this. It’s a little bit easier. So we’re going to talk first about something called new listings. This is a measurement of how many people put their properties up for sale in any given month, and that is up year over year. It’s up 6% according to Redfin, which is good in some ways, but it’s not crazy, right? We have seen really low inventory and to return to a healthier housing market, there need to be more properties listed for sale. And so having that go up, at least in the short term is generally seen as a good thing, but you have to look not at just how many people are listing their properties for sale. You also have to look at how long those properties are staying on the market because if they’re getting listed and going quickly, then prices can keep going up.
But if more things are getting listed this year than last year and they’re just sitting there and not really selling, then prices are probably going to go flat or go down because as property owners who want to sell their property are seeing their properties just sit there on the market week after week or month after month, they lower their price or they’re willing to offer concessions. And that’s what ultimately pushes prices down. And what’s happening right now is that active listings are up 10% year over year. And again, that’s not crazy because we have to look at the historical context here. So you might know this, but back in 2019, active listings were averaging somewhere around 2.3, 2.4 million. Then during the pandemic they went down to 1.6. We actually bottomed out at 1.1 million and although they’re going back up right now, they’re still at 1.5 million, they’ll probably go up over the summer and get somewhere close to 1.9 million.
So they’re going up, but they’re still not at pre pandemic levels. And that’s one of the main things as we talk about the housing market that you need to remember is when we compare what’s happening now to what was happening during the pandemic, it’s not the best comparison honestly, because what happened during the pandemic was just so unusual. So to say, oh my god, inventory has gone up compared to the pandemic. Of course it did because it was like at all time lows. I personally like to look at that still, but compared to 2019, and so we’re seeing things come back closer to pre pandemic levels, but we’re not there yet. And so this is the reason why I am saying that the market is softening. It’s back to where it was. I would even say it’s just sort of a normalization of the market, but because we’ve gotten used to this super heated market that’s very tight, there are not a lot of things on the market, there are still a lot of demand.
And so things are moving really quickly. That’s why I’m saying it’s softening because we’re just moving back to a more balanced housing market. So you definitely see that in the active listings numbers. You see that in some other data that you can look at for these things like days on market, those are going back up or months of supply. These are just other ways to measure the housing market. We don’t need to get into them today, but what you should probably know is that all of the measures of housing market health are just saying that we’re getting closer back to pre pandemic levels of the balance between supply and demand. Now of course, what I’ve been talking about so far is about the national housing market, but there are huge regional differences. We’re actually seeing a lot of signs that the market is kind of splitting. Some markets are growing in one direction, others are going in the other direction. So we’re going to break down those regional differences in just a minute. But first we have to take a quick break. And this week’s bigger news is brought to you by the Fundrise Flagship Fund, invest in private market real estate with the Fundrise Flagship fund. Check out fundrise.com/pockets to learn more.
Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. We are here doing our March housing market update. Before the break, we talked about how a lot of the data suggests that the national housing market is moving to a more balanced market, a more buyer’s market, but that is not happening everywhere in the country. So let’s just take a minute here and talk about how inventory changes are different in different regions of the country. First things first, what you need to know is that every single state in the country is experiencing increases in inventory except North Dakota. North Dakota is down 2%, everywhere else is up. This is just year over year since 2024 in February to 2025 in February. And again, I’m recording this in early March. So the last month that we have data for is February. The state that has the highest shift in inventory over the last year is Nevada.
We see California at 44%, Arizona at 41%. Vermont is up there, Hawaii is near 50%. So that’s happening everywhere where if you want to know regionally where things are happening in the least, it’s mostly in the northeast and the Midwest. So I said North Dakota, that’s kind of an outlier, but New York for example, only up 3%. New jersey’s 9%, Illinois is 9%. So it’s sort of a continuation of the trends where the hottest or the strongest housing markets, I should say are in the Midwest and the Northeast. Some of the weaker ones are in the mountain west and west coast and the southeast as well. Georgia’s up 37%, Florida’s up 34%. That’s just at a state level. But given what I was saying before about the utility and usefulness of comparing data from this past year to the year prior, it’s helpful. We need to know it because you need to know how the market’s changing.
But I also like to provide this context of how things have changed since before the pandemic because that will really give us some clues about where prices are heading in any given market. And when you look at the data this way, it is very, very different. Remember I just said that everything’s going up year over year because it was super low. But when we look at how February, 2025 compares to February, 2019, it’s a pretty different story. We have certain markets where we are still nowhere even close to the levels of inventory that we were at in 2019. When I look at a state like Pennsylvania, it’s down 50%, still over 2019. Maine is down 61%. New Hampshire, 61%, Illinois, 63%, almost all of it is concentrated in the Northeast and the Midwest. So Wisconsin, Michigan, Virginia, all of these states are really down. Actually Alaska’s down too.
That’s kind of the only one that’s out there other than North Dakota. Again, those are sort of the most significantly down, but even throughout the rest of the country, most states are still down compared to pre pandemic levels. If we look at the Carolinas, California, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, all of them are still down. So that is sort of the big picture thing that you should keep in mind is that although inventory is returning, most states are still down compared to pre pandemic. So they’re still not back to what would be considered a normal market. There are four states, however that are above pre pandemic levels. The number one with the most inventory growth above pre pandemic levels is Texas. It’s 15% above where it was in 2019. Then comes Florida with 9% above Colorado at 7%, and Tennessee actually with 2% as well. So again, the regional differences really matter, and I’m talking about states.
I can’t get into every individual metro area on the podcast, it’s just too much to do. But what my recommendation for all of you is to look at these two things for your individual market because even within Texas which has rising inventory, there are certain markets and there are certain neighborhoods where inventory is still down. Or if you look at Pennsylvania, which has 50% declines in inventory, I’m sure there are still neighborhoods in areas where inventory is increasing. So I really recommend you look at two things in your market. Go and compare inventory levels right now in February of 2025 to where it was last year, see how much that’s growing and then compare it to 2019 and you’ll get a sense of how quickly the market is shifting from that really strong sellers market. That was kind of universal for years back to what would be a more normal sort of balance kind of market.
So what does this all mean? The stuff I said and the research you should probably be doing on your own as well. Any market where inventory is going up rapidly has the biggest chances of price growth slowing. And in some markets that mean it might go from 10% appreciation to 5% appreciation. In some markets that might mean six to two. Some markets it might mean going from flat to negative. And so it really depends on the scale of the inventory changes and what’s going on in your particular market. But as a whole, just going back, zooming back out to the national level, I do think that given inventory is rising and demand hasn’t picked back up, at least in the last couple of months, we are going to see further softening. And this is one of those reasons why I’ve said repeatedly that I do think prices will be maybe modestly up this year or somewhere near flat, especially when you compare those things to inflation, they might be a little bit negative based on the data that we’re seeing here today.
Now again, that is not going to happen in every market and what that means for real estate investors is not as obvious as you think. Declining prices are not necessarily a bad thing. A lot of people, I’d say maybe even most investors think that is actually a good thing. So we’ll talk more about what a softening market means, but we sort of have to address one other big thing before we get into what you should do next, which is of course mortgage rates. Mortgage rates have been in the news a lot and as of this recording, they’ve dropped down to 6.64% for a 30 year fix, which is down nearly 0.6% from where they were. They had shot up all the way to 7.25%. They’ve come down a lot and that is generally good news for real estate investors. But of course the reason this is happening is because there is bad economic news.
So we have to dig into this a little bit and sort of unpack what’s happening and what this means. So why have rates fallen so much over the last couple of weeks? We’ve talked about this in other episodes, you can go hear about it in further detail, but we’ve seen a bunch of soft economic data. The first thing was we had low consumer sentiment. We actually had the biggest month over month drop in four years. It’s not like this is going crazy, it’s lower than it was over the last few months, but it’s pretty much in line with where it’s been from 2022 to 2025. But after the election, consumer confidence had been growing and that has reversed itself over the last couple of weeks, and that decline in consumer confidence worries investors. And so we’ve seen some weakness in the soft market. I’ll get to that in a second.
The other thing that we’ve seen is an uptick in unemployment claims. There are lots of ways to measure unemployment. This is one I like to measure because it basically looks at the number of layoffs. And so we’ve seen layoffs start to tick up. Again, nothing crazy, but these are just small things that start to spook the market, right? And what we’re talking about when we talk about mortgage rates is essentially how bond investors and stock investors are reacting to all this news. And right now, given the level of uncertainty in the world, given the level of uncertainty in the markets, people are very sensitive. They’re reacting pretty dramatically back and forth to all the news that they’re getting. And so little changes in unemployment claims, little changes in consumer sentiment are probably impacting markets more than they would if this was 10 years ago in the middle of just a normal economic cycle.
So that is two things that are happening. And so there’s actually one thing that has happened over the last just two weeks that I think has further spooked investors, not tariffs. Those are sort of obvious. That is definitely something that’s been weighing on people’s mind. But something that I think got lost in the shuffle over the last few weeks is that there is this tool called the GDP Now tool. It’s put out by the Atlanta Fed, and it basically predicts where gross domestic product is going to go for the current quarter that we’re in. If you don’t know what GDP is gross domestic product, it’s basically the total measurement of economic output and it’s super important, right? If the economy is growing, that’s generally a good thing for the United States. If the economy contracts, that means people’s quality of life spending power is generally going down.
And anyway, what happened was the Atlanta Fed tool, which has proven to be very accurate historically, has changed its prediction. Just two weeks ago it was predicting 2% growth for GDP, which is not great. It’s not like an amazing quarter, but it’s not bad. It’s kind of just like a normal kind of quarter. It basically plummeted and the estimate now went to about negative 2.5% and has held there for three consecutive weeks. And so now they’re predicting that GDP is actually going to decline here in the first quarter of 2025, and that is super significant for all the reasons that I just mentioned. So between softer consumer sentiment and uptick in unemployment claims, softer GDP projections, uncertainty around tariffs, this has just basically spooked investors and it has led to a large stock market selloff. We’ve seen the NASDAQ was down 10% at certain points, which is correction territory.
That’s a significant decline. We’re basically seeing the entire boost in the stock market that we saw after the Trump election erased we’re back to basically where we were before the election. And what happens for real estate investors for mortgages is when people sell off their stock market, typically what they do is they take their money and they put it in bonds. And I’m not talking about me. If I sold off some of my stock, I probably wouldn’t go do this, but we’re talking about the big money movers. People who manage pension plans or hedge funds, they need to put that money somewhere. And so when they take it out of stock market, they typically put it into bonds because they’re seen as safe when they’re spooked about what’s happening in the stock market or the economy as a whole, they take the money, they put it in bonds, and that increases demand for bonds because everyone wants them.
And that pushes down yields, right? If a lot of people want to lend money to the government, the government can borrow that money at a lower interest rates. That’s yields coming down. And since yields and mortgage rates are almost perfectly correlated, that will take mortgage rates down with them. And so that is why mortgage rates have come down. Of course, no one knows for sure what is going to happen, but I’ll give you at least my opinion and what I’m thinking about and doing with my own portfolio. But first, we have to take a quick break. We’ll be right back. If you’re eager to get started in real estate investing, a smart first step is to partner with an investor friendly financial planner who can help you get your house in order and ensure you’re set up for financial success from the get go to biggerpockets.com/tax finder to get matched with a tax professional or financial planner in your area.
Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. We are here doing our March housing market update and where we left off, I was going to try and make sense of this whole situation and share with you what I think this all means. Now, all the data, everything that I’ve shared with you, the future and direction of the housing market to me is really about economic sentiment. And that basically just sucks because it’s hard to predict, right? I’m sorry, but I know other influencers, creators, they’re going to tell you definitively what’s going to happen, but they’re misleading. I’m an analyst and the only thing I can tell you with certainty is that right now things are particularly uncertain and that’s the most important thing to remember. It is okay for your investing thesis or hypothesis to be that it is uncertain. It is better to admit that than to act on a false interpretation or false certainty because you don’t really know.
But here’s how I am personally seeing this. It seems to me that economic pessimism is gaining steam and people will have different opinions about what’s going to happen in the future. I am looking at data, I’m looking at trends, and this is what the data shows. It shows that investor confidence is down, the stock market is turning, the housing market is starting to soften, and does that mean we’re going to a recession? I don’t know. I think it is far too early to say that the GDP now thing is just one estimate, but I’m just telling you that the change from where we were in January to where the data was in February is pretty significant. There was a lot of economic optimism in December and January that has shifted in February and it might shift back, but right now it does feel like economic pessimism is gaining steam.
And for me, there are a couple things to take away from this. The first thing that has been coming to my mind recently is if we enter in a recession, and again, that is a big if, but something I’ve been thinking about is could this shape up to be what is sort a classic economic cycle where real estate is the quote first in first out, if you haven’t heard of this, there’s this pattern that has existed in a lot of recessions in the past where things are going off great, we’re in an expansion, businesses are booming, the stock market’s going up, everything is great, people are taking out debt. At a certain point, the economy starts to overheat and that leads to inflation. At that point, the Federal Reserve raises interest rates, right? Sound familiar? This is what’s been going on. And when the Federal Reserve raises interest rates, it impacts real estate first.
And I’m not saying this just because this is a real estate podcast, but real estate is just basically the most leveraged asset class. And actually as we’ve seen over the last several decades, it’s become really sort of on its own in how leveraged it is, which basically means it uses the most debt. And sure people take out debt to finance buildings and manufacturing and expansions for businesses, but real estate is really highly leveraged. And so you see real estate bear the brunt of a recession actually before everything else. And if you’re in this industry, you’ve been probably saying this and screaming that we’re in a real estate recession for the last two or three years, transaction volume has been down, prices have been largely flat, right? We’ve sort of been in a real estate recession for a while. But what’s been amazing is that other parts of the American economy has remained resilient despite these higher interest rates.
And for one reason or another, maybe that resilience is cracking right now and it’s reverting back to what we would’ve expected that the rest of the economy is starting to feel some of the pain of higher interest rates. So that’s sort of the classic start of a recession, right? Real estate comes first and then the rest of the economy comes second. But then what happens when the rest of the economy starts to slow down? Well, the Federal Reserve wants to stimulate the economy. They’re no longer as afraid of inflation, so they lower interest rates, and that gives a stimulus first to real estate, right? Because it is a leveraged asset class. So as those rates start to come down, it kickstarts economic activity, particularly in the real estate section, and that can actually help lead the entire economy out of a recession. And real estate is big enough.
It is a big enough part of our economy to both help bring the economy into a recession. And out of it, it’s estimated to be about 16% of GDP. That is huge for any one industry. Now, if you’re thinking that’s not what happened in 2008, that is definitely true. It’s sort of the exception to this pattern, and we don’t know what’s going to happen. But the belief among most economists is it didn’t happen in 2008 because unlike this current time in 2008, housing was the problem. That’s what created the recession in the first place. Whereas right now, housing is not the problem. Housing, a lot of the fundamentals are fundamentally sound. What’s going on with housing is really a reaction to interest rates. And so what I see emerging is potentially this first in first out situation. That is probably what I think is the most likely scenario as we’re looking at it today.
I think there are two other things that are possible that I’ll just mention, but I think they’re less likely. So the second thing that can happen is maybe this is just a blip in economic data and there’s actually going to be strong growth and people regain their confidence, in which case we’ll probably see mortgage rates go back up a little bit. I don’t know if they’re going to go back up to 7.25, but they’ll probably go back up again. In which case, I think the housing market will continue on its current softening trajectory. Again, I don’t think that means a crash. It probably means corrections in certain markets where other markets are going to keep growing. But I think we’ll continue on the trend that we’ve been on for the last couple of months. So that is a second possibility. It’s not that unlikely, it just doesn’t seem like the most likely scenario.
And then the third one, I don’t think this is so likely right now, but actually when you look at some of the data, there is a little bit of risk right now of what is known as stagflation. And again, I don’t think this is what’s happening just yet, but I just want to call it out because it is possible. Stagflation is when the economy slows down, but inflation is going up. This is basically the worst case scenario for the economy, but we have seen inflation go up a little bit then it’s sort of flat, so it’s not super concerning just yet. But there is a world where inflation goes back up due to tariffs. And the GDP now tool is correct and GDP declines, in which case we would have a really difficult economic situation where the economy is contracting, but inflation is going up, and that’s basically the worst case scenario.
Spending power is going down, but wages aren’t going up, the stock market is going down. And so although that is possible, I wouldn’t worry about that just yet. It’s just something that I wanted to mention that we’ll keep an eye on in the next couple of months. So as we do these updates every single month, I will update you and let you know if that’s a concern. There is some data trends that suggest it’s possible, but I think we’re still a far way off from concluding that that is happening. So let’s just go back to what I think is the most likely scenario, which is kind of this first in first out situation with real estate. Does that mean that it’s potentially a good time to buy real estate, right? Because don’t get me wrong, when markets are softening like they are, that comes with risk.
There is further risk that prices are going to decline. And I’ve said it before, but there is a lot of garbage out there. There’s a lot of bad deals, overpriced stuff out there, and things could get worse before they get better. But there is also a case that in at least some and maybe many regional markets that a buying window may emerge. Think about the conditions that we might have over the next couple of months. More inventory coming on the market leads to price softness, which gives you negotiating leverage, right? Because if you know that prices are soft and they might be declining more, that is something that you should be using in your bid strategy. And when you’re offering on properties, try and buy below asking price or what you think the market might bottom out at. So that gives you negotiating leverage. Remember I said softening it sounds scary, but that actually means we’re in a buyer’s market.
Buyers have the power. So that’s one good thing you might not want to buy even in a buyer’s market, if you think that that buyer’ss market’s going to continue for a long time and we’re going to have this sort of protracted period of prices going down. But remember that prices have been largely flat or growing modestly over just the last couple of years. And so we’ve seen this for a while. And if the current economic mood is correct and that we are going to see a contracting economy, that means that rates might stay as low as they are now and they could go down a little bit more. And if that scenario happens, that could bring demand back into the housing market. People often think that if the economy is doing poorly and there’s a recession that causes lower housing demand, but that is not always the case.
Housing demand is almost always tied to affordability. And so yes, if you don’t have a job, you’re not going to be going out there and buying a home. But for people who feel secure in their jobs, this might actually lead to better housing affordability. If the market softens and rates go down, that means more people are going to be able to afford more homes. That drives up demand and could actually reignite price appreciation in the housing market. That’s not what happened in 2008, remember, that is an outlier. But this is what often happens. So it’s something I’ll be keeping a close eye out for, and I recommend you do too. Personally, I have been looking for deals. I’m always looking for deals. I haven’t found anything so far yet this year. I’ve offered on some, haven’t been able to make it work, but I am maybe strangely optimistic about the potential for deal flow over the next couple of months and in the second half of this year.
I think that right now, we’ve been talking a lot this year about this potential for upside. And while there is risk, don’t get me wrong, there is risk in these kinds of markets. That upside is there and might even actually be growing throughout 2025 because if rates do come down and you have the opportunity to negotiate better prices on houses, that could set the stage for really good upside and future growth. So that’s how I’m seeing it. I would love if you’re watching this on YouTube to let us know how you are interpreting this housing market and what decisions you are making about your own portfolio. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets podcast. I hope this housing market update was useful to you. We’ll see you next time.

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In This Episode We Cover:

  • Why the housing market is starting to noticeably “soften” in 2025
  • Hottest/coldest housing markets in the United States with the most/least inventory
  • Are price declines coming? Whether we’ll end this year with negative price growth
  • Why mortgage rates are dropping, but housing demand isn’t rising
  • Why real estate could be the “First In, First Out” investment of 2025’s wild economy
  • Whether or not now is the time to buy and what could cause a reversal of these worrying trends
  • And So Much More!

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March 2025 Housing Market Update: Are Price Declines Coming?

How to Unlock Your Home’s Hidden Passive Income Stream (ADUs 101)

There’s a hidden passive income stream in your basement, backyard, or garage, and only one investing strategy can unlock it. More and more homeowners and landlords are using this strategy to pay their mortgages, pad their pockets with cash flow, and increase their home values significantly. Of course, we’re talking about ADUs (accessory dwelling units), the rental properties that states are begging you to build, and you can do so right now with the home you already own.

To help you affordably (and profitably) build your first ADU, we brought on Derek Sherrell, AKA That ADU Guy, to give you the beginner steps to your first attached (or detached) investment. We’re walking through which properties have the best ADU opportunity, how much an ADU costs to build or convert, how much an ADU will make, how to fund and finance your first ADU, and how Derek builds an ADU from scratch in just 90 days!

Derek often makes an infinite return on his ADU investments, and he’s teaching you how to do the same! If you’re in an expensive state like California, Oregon, or Washington, this strategy is even more effective as you can collect more rent AND do so without local regulations slowing down your ADU progress!

Click here to listen on Apple Podcasts.

Listen to the Podcast Here

Read the Transcript Here

Dave:
There may be a hidden passive income stream in your basement right now, or in your garage or your backyard. Today we’re breaking down one of the most powerful ways to add cashflow to your investment properties or even your primary home. What’s up everyone? I’m Dave Meyer and this is the BiggerPockets Podcast where we teach you how to achieve financial freedom through real estate investing. Today we’re talking about accessory dwelling units or ADUs. And if you’re not familiar with this term, it just means a second living space on one property that could be closing off a basement or an attic to make it into an apartment. It can be putting a tiny home in your backyard or converting your garage into a separate unit. And this strategy has the potential to massively improve the earning potential for any property. Just think about it, creating an A DU can be as simple as putting up a couple of walls, and it can add an entire new rent check into your pocket every month.
Joining us on the show today is Derek Cheryl. You may know him as the A DU guy. He’s an investor who built his first A DU when he was still in high school nearly two decades ago, and it’s been leadingly charge on this affordable and profitable real estate venture ever since. Derek is going to explain to us how to find properties that are undervalued because of their hidden A DU potential share, which a DU options can generate the most revenue for the lowest cost and much more. All right, let’s bring on Derek. Derek, welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. It’s great to have you here. Thanks for having me. Glad to be back. Could you just give our audience for anyone who hasn’t listened to some of your previous episodes, just a brief intro to you and your investing career?

Derek:
Yeah, real quickly, guys and gals out there, we plan design, finance, build and hold accessory dwelling units, also known as ADUs. Participated in my first A DU build in 1996 in this small southern Oregon town. And our goal now is to influence as much housing as we possibly can, and then when I die, I’m going to give it all away. And we do this through open source, so we give away free plans all over the country. We teach people how to build the plans that we give away via our YouTube channel, and we don’t sell anything. You’re not going to get an email from me. We truly are just here to help people build more attainable infill housing.

Dave:
You were way ahead of the curve on ADUs because they’ve been getting popular, at least from my perspective in the last few years, but you were several decades ahead, but can you tell everyone how you got started on your first one?

Derek:
I had a high school wood shop teacher, John Wesson was his name, and he handpicked a group of misfit kids that he knew probably weren’t going to go straight to college, and he taught us a skill and he got this group of kids together, me being one of ’em, and we built an illegal A DU for another one of our high school teachers, and I got the bug instantly. I started an apprenticeship in high school, became licensed contractor shortly thereafter, and the rest was history.

Dave:
For those people who don’t know what an A DU is, it stands for accessory dwelling Unit, but tell us a little bit about this asset class in particular. Derek, what about it is so interesting to you and why is it getting popular right now?

Derek:
What’s unique about this asset class is it’s really a hack to building small multifamily in a residential low density neighborhood that couldn’t be construed as maybe more popular place to live. B, it can be financed residentially, so you’re not having to compete with resetting debt or variable rate debt. You can get long-term 30 year fixed rate mortgages on this product, and there’s a lot of land. And the biggest benefit to this strategy is it’s the training wheels to development, and most of the utilities in most cases are already there, so you get this huge cost savings and then on top of that, you already own the land. So those are a few of the benefits. And I’d say one more kind of sneaker benefit is it’s still an underutilized strategy, so I think there’s a lot of room for upside in the next five to 10 years.

Dave:
And just for everyone listening, at least in my opinion, the most common way that people employ an A DU strategy is you buy a single family house or a duplex where there is zoning upside, and we’ve talked a lot about this on the show recently, is trying to find opportunities and properties where the current usage of the property is not up to the maximum allowable buildable space. So maybe you have a single family and you’re allowed to build two units, or they have a specific provision that allows for accessory dwelling units or detached dwelling units. And as Derek said, what’s so cool about it is if you could buy a property that’s a rental property that makes sense just as is the incremental benefit to adding an A DU just seems so appealing because everything you just said, you already own the land, you already have the utilities running there, and so it just seems like the return you can generate on this incremental investment seems really compelling, especially in today’s day and age where it’s harder to find cashflow.

Derek:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more with everything you said with the exception of one little piece where the primary house has to make sense.
And as I look back on most of our data, a lot of what we’re buying the primary house doesn’t make sense as a rental. It doesn’t cashflow, it doesn’t even break even in most cases. And I have this argument all the time with people that say, never ever buy a cashflow negative house that is, unless the upside is so great in your financial position, can withstand a little bit of a loss on the front side because the value add on the back is so great. Everything that you said I agreed with except for the primary having to make sense.

Dave:
Well, I’m glad you’re disagreeing. Let’s dig into that a little bit. So when you’re saying you buy this stuff where the primary doesn’t make sense given your business, you just know that you’re going to do an A DU, so does that mean within a year it makes sense or two years? What sort of timeframe do you give yourself to turn it into a performing asset?

Derek:
So everything we’re doing is turned and stabilized and has long-term fixed rate debt in a year or less. And so I know my upside is soon and the things that are really important for the upside and why I care less about how the primary house performs is the primary house in most cases is collateral damage to a few things. First and foremost always is location. Second is going to be access, and then third is going to be infrastructure. So there may be a house that’s sat on the market for a while that’s way overpriced. That would not work as a flip, it would not work as a short-term rental. It definitely wouldn’t work as a long-term rental, but it has alley access, it’s a few blocks from downtown and there’s a brand new sewer main with stubs to the sidewalk, and there’s already a water meter in.
So I come in there with what I call my A DU goggles, and if you guys aren’t watching on YouTube right now, you can see these. If you’re on a podcast, I’m putting on my $5 science class goggles. And what I want people to take away from this point is that you have to look at properties different. These are my A DU goggles. I show up and I look at a property through a different lens, and most of it is how do I save money in the long run by good infrastructure, good access, and good location. So that’s why the primary house is less important. And then for the icing on the cake of this strategy, if you’re in an area that has a zoning upside as we go through this sweeping zoning reform across many states right now, a lot of states are now allowing you to sell these assets. So having the upside of potential, a lot more value add when it’s on its own tax lot is also a big piece of the puzzle of why the primary has less value in the initial underwriting.

Dave:
Yeah, I think with that case, we agree. I’ve been saying on the show for the last couple months now talking about upside in different ways to find properties right now that if you could stabilize something within a year or so, that’s a good deal. It’s not any different than doing a burr, right? When you buy a Burr property, it’s not going to perform right away. And so it’s just about getting it to perform in a reasonable amount of time if you’re doing that within a year. That’s I think a pretty good timeline if the numbers make sense at the end of the day. Can you just tell us a little bit about the sweeping zoning changes? You kind of alluded to just a minute ago, one of the main reasons we wanted to have you back in the news everywhere right now. Can you just tell us a little bit more about what’s driving this renewed or sort of increased interest in ADUs nationally right now?

Derek:
Yeah, for sure. There is, like I said, sweeping zoning reform coming across the Western states. It’s in the Sunbelt, it’s on the east coast as well. Right now we have eight states with overarching outright awesome A DU law, and the main driver is pretty blunt. Cities in high priced areas have done a crappy job for the last 50 years when it comes to their zoning laws, when it comes to their comprehensive plans, when it comes to inclusionary areas. And it’s basically made housing more and more and more unaffordable based on the premise of trying to keep riffraff the poor, the black and the brown out of lower density, higher class neighborhoods. And it’s been a massive fail, and we’ve seen that. So now what’s happening is state legislators are coming in and they’re saying, Hey, cities, you’ve done an absolute insert cuss word here, job of managing housing, and we’re going to tie your hands and we’re going to make some model code for the state, and you’re going to have to follow it.
So overarching state law is the biggest driver, and it starts with the unaffordability of housing. And I am a proponent of more affordable, I’ve been a planning commissioner, I’m an amateur planner. I’ve been literally obsessed with housing for close to three decades, and I’m really careful about affordable housing. So we’re creating more affordable, there’s two kinds of housing in my mind. There’s subsidized, affordable, and then there’s more affordable, more attainable. And because an A DU is on a smaller piece of land and it’s a smaller footprint, it therefore is a more affordable, more attainable option.

Dave:
That’s a really important distinction. I like that you’re calling it a difference between affordable housing, which is often used to describe, like you said, subsidized in some way by the public sector, by either local, state, federal government, that sort of affordable housing. But this a DU development strategy that you’re talking about is more of a private sector style solution to affordable houses just by increasing housing supply, which in theory will at least moderate price growth or just sort of fill a void in the housing market these days because traditional developers just are building fewer and fewer smaller homes, fewer and fewer traditional starter home style properties. And so a DU has seemed to be filling that void for a lot of people. All right, Derek, I want to hear a little bit more about how people can implement an A DU strategy, but first we have to take a quick break. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast here with Derek Cheryl talking about ADUs. Before the break, we were just talking about why ADUs are getting so much attention these days. Derek, tell us a little bit about now how you see investors taking advantage of some of these trends, and if there are investors listening who want to turn a profit and help provide more affordable housing in their communities, how do you recommend they get started?

Derek:
I would say the best way to get started is to familiarize yourself with the zoning regulations in the market you’re trying to invest in. And this goes back to one of my friends, Henry Washington. He says, this is a people business. People think it’s a real estate business, but it’s not. It’s a people business. So you have to know the people. And when I say people, I’m talking about the planners, okay, call the city planning and zoning office and say, Hey, I’m a local investor new to this market. I’m looking to do the A DU strategy. What areas would you shop in? Can you send me a zoning map that shows areas that would be a good spot for what we’re trying to do? So I would always tell investors to build relationships in every single market you go into. There’s somebody in that market that’s doing what you want to do. Find those people, whether they’re in the public sector or the private sector, add value to them if they’re private, if they’re public, just go ask questions and familiarize yourself with the zoning regulations. Again, I don’t want to put anybody to sleep with the Z word, but that’s where it starts. I mean, you could have the best location, you could have a suitcase full of money, but if the zoning regulations don’t allow you to complete your strategy, you’re barking up the wrong

Dave:
Tree. And is there anything in particular people should be looking for in the zoning regulation? Obviously you’re looking for permission that ADUs in general are permitted, but are there certain states or regulations or provisions that you think make ADUs easier than other types of implementations right now?

Derek:
Yeah. Yeah. I’ll go over some things to look for. So we’re looking for codes that don’t have off street parking requirements.
We’re looking for codes that don’t have residency requirements. Those are a couple of poison pills in the A DU community. And then the best way to figure out if the city is really a DU friendly is just to ask them how many accessory dwelling unit permits they’ve granted in the last year or the last biennium or whatnot. If it’s two, that’s going to be a tough market. If it’s Seattle and they’re like, we gave out 25,000 sets of plans last year and 19,000 of them were for a DU related builds, you’re in the right spot. Another thing that I always tell investors to look for is look for cities that already have pre-approved accessory dwelling unit plans. And what that allows you to do is completely streamline the process, save time, and save money. And it may not be your exact design, and you still have to go through the zoning process of plotting that footprint on the land that you want to build it. But when cities have free pre-approved A DU plans, they’re a DU friendly.

Dave:
That’s really good. And can you just find that on a local website?

Derek:
Yeah, you can find it on a local website. If I’m looking at, let’s just say Austin, I’ll just type in Austin a DU program, and it’ll usually take you to a city site and within 30 seconds an average intelligence person such as myself can find out if they have a program or not

Dave:
For sure.

Derek:
But never be afraid to call the planning and zoning office and ask them for advice or ask them for resources.

Dave:
Awesome. That’s great advice. And I would imagine when you do find these places, they’re supportive, but are there contractors or builders who specialize in these plans? Because I’d imagine as a contractor you can make a pretty good business really getting good at these pre-approved plans.

Derek:
There should be. I will say unfortunately, the public private partnership is pretty sparse, and that’s because a lot of cities probably rightfully so, don’t want to endorse any individuals,

Dave:
But

Derek:
Always ask the planners, what architects do you like? What builders

Dave:
Get

Derek:
Their plans submitted with just one try? So they’re not supposed to tell you. But again, it’s a people business, and if you’re personable and you ask good questions, they’ll help you.

Dave:
So that’s great. That’s awesome to know. On the zoning side, what about on the property side? Because it seems to me, I live in Seattle now that there is all sorts of different things. Like when I was investing mostly in Endeavor, you saw a lot of basement conversions or simple stuff like that, whereas here you see full on detached 1200 square foot houses being built as ADUs. So what do you find? Derek is the most economical way for people to get into the A DU game?

Derek:
The most economical way to get into the A DU game is by far to buy a primary single family house with some sort of functional obsolescence or split level layout where you can convert a section of that primary house into a legal separate unit. My favorite is look for a house that has a master bedroom and bathroom on one side with an exterior entrance. You simply do some fire and life safety wall work. You do a fire separation wall, you pull the permits, and you can easily turn a standard house into a shared wall side by side duplex. That is by far the easiest. Cool, okay. If the basement already has exterior access, egress windows and a bathroom, that’s not a bad option. So that’s by far the most affordable. That’s where I teach all the first time home buyers to look. You’re literally shopping for a duplex that nobody else can see. Again, a DU goggles, come on. So that’s the most economical, and I would say the most economical and then the most upside are complete different sides of the scale. So the best investment in my opinion is going to be to buy a property that has room to build or convert a standalone detached accessory dwelling unit. Okay, folks.

Dave:
Okay.

Derek:
Tenants want the same things that homeowners want in this order. They want location, they want privacy, and they want amenities. And I’m telling you, we’re seeing this already in lots of markets. There’s more multifamily than ever being built. There’s all this absorption that’s taking place. There’s major concessions. If you have a shared wall or an over under a DU, you’re competing with most of the multifamily. If you have a standalone product with privacy, they have their own little sitting area, maybe they have a fenced yard, you are going to have what we like to call a really high demand low supply product. So although it’s a lot more money to build a new standalone unit, it’s going to be way more valuable. You’re going to have way more tenants, and you’re also going to potentially, if you don’t already have the option to split it off and sell it or to split it off, refinance it on its own note because it’s its own piece of land and really scoop massive leverage.

Dave:
Awesome. Yeah, I see these popping up all over in Seattle. They’re very popular here, but you see them in other markets too. And I’m always just curious how much they cost to build, and I’m sure it’s very regional, but do you have any ballpark numbers for us?

Derek:
Yeah, I’ll give you some really good examples. So I’ll give you the spectrum. So I’d say in high value markets, let’s just say Southern California, San Diego, Austin, Texas, Seattle, Washington, we’re seeing three to $400 a square foot as kind of a semi custom builder grade. For example, A lot of places allow you to build up to a thousand square feet, and we’re seeing those costs anywhere from three to $400,000. And that’s hands off as an investor, higher in a contractor through relationships to get decent volume pricing. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we owning construction and planning, designing, financing, building and holding affordable, simple, designed ADUs. We’re building ADUs for a hundred thousand dollars.

Dave:
Wow.

Derek:
And bigger isn’t always better. Our number one unit, and this is a unit that we give away, you can go to that adu guy.com, the free plans are on the top of our website, big red tab, and we’re building these 600 square foot ADUs for a hundred thousand dollars. They’re valued around three 50 to four, and they rent for anywhere from 16 to $1,800 a month. So

Dave:
What, that’s insane.

Derek:
The spectrum is a hundred thousand to 400,000. Bigger isn’t always better.

Dave:
Derek, I do want to ask you more about those numbers, dig into those and just actually figure out what kind of returns you can get here because they seem crazy. But we do have to take a quick break. But before we do go on break, I wanted to ask you, we just put BP Con tickets for sale up early. Birds are out right now, and I understand you’re coming this year to Vegas and you’re going to be speaking. Can you tell us a little bit about what your session’s going to be on?

Derek:
I’m going to be talking about ADUs, everything about them, how to look for them, how to build them, how to find properties, and how to drive profit while adding needed infill housing. So I’m really humbled to be asked back for the third straight year, and I can’t wait to meet you in person.

Dave:
Awesome. Yeah. Well, very on-brand for you still talking about ADUs. If you want to check out those early bird tickets, make sure to go to biggerpockets.com/conference and get your early bird ticket today. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast here with Derek Sherrill talking about AD before the break. He shared some insights into numbers. And just as a reminder, you’re saying that sort of high price markets, you could expect to pay three to 400 bucks a square foot, but you’re able to build some properties at a hundred thousand dollars that we’re renting for 16 to 1800 bucks a month, which is crazy, right? I mean, those are just remarkable numbers. Even if you bought that for cash, that’s a 20% cash on cash return. So can you just tell us maybe first and foremost, how do you finance these deals? Are you building them and buying them for cash or are you able to get a loan to build an A DU

Derek:
Multiple ways? And I want to say this for our new investors out here, I want to give some clarity. So I’m still to this day, house hacking. I could live anywhere I want in any neighborhood, in any house, and I still house hack. So the best way is to just buy a primary house and then find a way to get the money. There’s a ton of products that are popping up every day similar to a construction loan or to a bridge loan. There’s some really good ones where they’ll give you maybe a hundred percent loan to value on the unbuilt A DU based on your plan set and an appraisal when it’s finished.
The hardest part is getting the project done. Once you have the asset, it’s really easy to get your money back. I mean, it’s the simplest bur ever. Yeah, it’s the simplest refi ever. I mean, we’re able to build so much equity into these, and as long as you don’t over-designed overbuild and overspend, I mean we’re getting a hundred percent of our money back every single time on assets that steal cashflow. So when you mentioned the 20% cash on cash, if we were going to use just a cap rate model where you’re paying cash, well, we’re making infinite return because we have no money in the deal. And it’s also a brand new asset that has very little to no CapEx or maintenance for a long time. I’m not trying to be biased here, but I’m super biased. This is an amazing product.

Dave:
So you are trying to be biased.

Derek:
Oh, yes. And more people need to hear about this. And again, folks, I’ve got nothing to sell. I literally train my competition for free. I just couldn’t be more bullish right now on this asset class

Dave:
In my head, I’m trying to think about the order of operations here. So does that mean if you’re trying to get a single family, do you buy the single family and finance it and then try and get a secondary loan? Or are you saying that maybe you bring your plans to your purchase mortgage and try and get all the financing done at once upfront?

Derek:
My theory is put as little as you possibly can down with a primary purchase, 3.5% FHA, or 5% conventional or 0% if you’re a service member, thank you. And then use the cash reserves. You have to build the A DU because you’re really going to want to refinance out when you’re done with the A DU, especially if it’s on the same lot. Yes, there are products you can show up to a closing table, talk to your lender. If your lender doesn’t know anything about a 2 0 3 K loan or a construction improvement loan or what we call a bridge build to fixed rate loan, which is where you close a loan with one closing fee, one signing, and you have renovation money and maybe a year long time to do that. And then you have the long-term fixed rate product that it rolls into. You’re going to have to use a combination of one of those.
But I just want to tell people that the good old fashioned hard work way is how I started and is how I still do it. So buy a house low down, save up to build the A DU. You might have to get creative call a family member that has money. A lot of employer sponsored plans will let you borrow 50% up to 50 K from your 4 57 or your 401k. You can also use a private loan. You can use a credit card if you have good credit and you can get no interest for 18 months. Do whatever you can. It’s usually a financial stack of multiple different sections of money to build that unit. And then when you’re done, you have this new value, just like a bur, I call it a build bur

Dave:
It is. I mean, the idea behind it though is exactly,

Derek:
And it’s a slam dunk. It’s so much easier than a remodel. Some of my big investor friends that flip 200 houses a year, they’re getting into development and they’re sending me texts just like, oh my gosh, now I get it. It’s just so much easier. There’s so many less variables

Dave:
Because it’s repeatable, right?

Derek:
Oh, it’s a lot more scalable. It’s a lot more repeatable, and there’s just so many less variables. You don’t have surprises when you’re building new standalone construction.

Dave:
And I imagine it’s awesome that you give away these plans for free. I am looking at them right now. They literally, you can just go get ’em on Derek’s website. Well, if you’re just doing this in a neighborhood, you building the same thing over and over again. So you obviously learn how to do it well. The people who are building it learn to do it well, and you just get much more efficient, I imagine over time.

Derek:
That’s exactly right. I’ll give everybody my three tips to saving money on your a DU build. And it’s easier than you think. It’s one is start with a simple design. Okay? A rectangular structure, a single gable roof or a flat shed roof. Every corner we deviate from a rectangle is a minimum of $10,000. So start with a simple design. Wait,

Dave:
Say that again?

Derek:
Every corner we add to a rectangle is a minimum $10,000 costs. So if you have a rectangular A DU and you’re like, well, I want mine to have a bump out, or I want it to be an L shape, or I want it to look like a snout house, or I want to do a pop-out, you’ve got more siding, more corners, more trenching, more gutters, more roof line, more labor, more everything. And just because it’s a simple design doesn’t mean they don’t look custom or cool, or tenants don’t love that. Sure. So anyways, start with simple design, self-manage the project if possible, and do as much of the physical work as you can yourself. And again, for the non builder people, that doesn’t mean you can’t do dump runs on the weekends. It doesn’t mean you can’t do the landscaping or paint or do a bunch of things to save costs, but yes, to your original question, by building the same thing over and over and over, we get this kind of economy of scale.
We don’t have any decision fatigue, and then we’re building property management into our units. So we keep all these, and if somebody calls in with a leaky faucet, we don’t have to guess what cartridge it is. We use the same faucet all the time. We give away all of our resources there too. There’s a shopping list on our website where you can see all the fixtures and knobs and appliances we use, but we just keep it simple. The crews know how to build them, we know how to manage them. And then the only thing we change is the location, orientation, and the color.

Dave:
I would imagine that you and your team can build these things in your sleep now because you’ve done it so many times.

Derek:
Yeah. Our goal always is 90 days, we build two at a time. In 90 days, we just did four in just over 120 days. But if we’re breaking ground and we’re not handing keys to a tenant 90 days later, I’m not happy.

Dave:
Wow, that’s super impressive. That’s faster than any flip that most people can do When you annualize your return there, I’m sure it’s very, very good.
One thing haven’t talked about Derek, but I assume it’s sort of the same principle here, is adding an A DU to properties that you already own. This is sort of what, at least personally has attracted me to it, because I own some properties that do well right now, but have the ability to add a D. And I’m thinking to myself, I could probably build this for $150,000. I can probably use a line of credit to finance it, and I can lease it out for probably 1200 bucks a month in this market. And so even if I finance it, it’s to keep 20% down, that’s 30 grand. I’d have to keep into this deal, and I’m going to be making 15 grand off of it a year. It’s like a 50% cash on cash return for that portion of my investment. It’s crazy. So is this taking off as well that investors with existing portfolios are doing this too?

Derek:
Yeah. Yeah, it is. A lot of the calls I get and emails and dms daily are for that same exact question is, Hey, I’ve got a couple of properties in a good spot that are flat with good access and as opposed to going out and trying to buy something else, I’m just going to improve what I have.

Dave:
Yeah,

Derek:
That’s a great investment. And a few years ago, I would say just do a cash out refinance, lock it in and get your build money there. But the home equity line of credit is amazing. It’s my secret weapon. When I say I’m building with cash, a lot of my cash is just interest only home equity secured to properties that I own. So we’ve got a big HELOC that’s at like 7.5%. It’s prime, it’s at prime rate, and it’s interest only. So we’ll pull the HELOC on a build, and because it’s a month late, we’ll build the unit, we’ll occupy the unit, we’ll refinance the unit, and a lot of times we’ll only pay debt for two and a half months.

Dave:
Wow.

Derek:
So on a hundred thousand dollars a DU at seven and a half percent, it roughly costs us $3,000 to build a hundred thousand dollars asset that appraises at $400,000. That’s insane. Wow. I get a lot of flack for giving a lot of stuff away, and in my mind and in my heart, I just sometimes feel like I’m cheating. It’s like, how could I not give all this stuff away? I can’t believe we’re able to do this. So the home equity is very, very, very, very powerful. But you have to have a plan on the back end to refinance it. And more importantly than the plan, everybody can have a plan. You have to be able to execute. You’ve got to be lendable. You have to have a good debt to income ratio. Don’t go build your first A DU, get this big rent check and go buy a brand new Toyota Tacoma and crush your DTI. So the relationship with the lender is really, really important. So when you’re using the heloc, how do you pay the HELOC back? We don’t like interest only debt long. That’s a short-term play.

Dave:
Great. Very practical advice. Derek. Thank you. I think that financing piece is going to be super important for a lot of people who are thinking about how to do this. HELOCs a great way to do it. Highly recommend thinking about that. This is kind of a perfect situation for when you want to use a line of credit for these short-term types of investments. Derek, this has been super helpful. Thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge. Before we get out of here, you mentioned that a bunch of states have done this and they might be coming to more near you. Can you tell us, do you know off the top of your head the states where this is more achievable than others?

Derek:
Oh yeah. Home run states right now, Oregon, California, Washington, Arizona, Montana, Connecticut. Oh, wow. Most of Texas. Not state of Texas, but most of Texas. So there’s about eight right now that have overarching state law with about 10 or 15 in the works. And my prediction is that in the next maybe five to eight years, it’ll be half of the country.

Dave:
Yeah. The trend just seems to be going in this direction. You hear more and more, even if they’re not at states, like you said, local levels. Lot of municipalities are encouraging this because honestly, people don’t have that many other ideas to create more affordable housing. And this is one that has been proven to work. And so I would expect that people will scale it, and as Derek has shown us today, it makes sense on both sides. Right. It makes sense from a investor standpoint, and it hopefully is going to also create some more affordable housing, as Derek had said. Well, thank you so much for being here, Derek. We really appreciate your time, and I look forward to seeing you at BP Con later this year.

Derek:
Awesome. Thanks for having me, folks.

Dave:
Thanks again for watching. We’ll see you next time.

Watch the Episode Here

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In This Episode We Cover:

  • How much an ADU costs to build, and the wild returns Derek is making in 2025
  • The most affordable ADU conversion that will boost your property’s cash flow
  • Three crucial beginner tips when designing and building your first ADU
  • How to finance your ADU conversion/build and why Derek loves HELOCs
  • Best states for building ADUs and who to call BEFORE you decide to build
  • And So Much More!

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Building HUGE Equity With 100% Hands-Off Investing

House flipping can make you wealthy. Everyone has seen the TV shows, podcast interviews, and the high-priced renovations, even in their own neighborhoods. But what if where you live is WAY too expensive to flip houses? The home costs are high, the labor costs are high, and underpriced, outdated homes are hard to find. Thankfully, you’re not out of luck. Today, we’re teaching you how to flip houses from a distance, even thousands of miles away!

Dominique Gunderson is currently flipping 12 houses from 2,000 miles away. Yes, it’s possible (and profitable), and Dominique has made it her full-time business. As a Los Angeles native, Dominique couldn’t afford anything in her home market, but through visiting family in New Orleans, she realized it was the perfect place to flip. So, she slowly started scaling a team that would allow her to be anywhere in the world while she ran her business.

In only her mid-twenties, she’s been able to build a team that takes care of the renovations and rehabs for her while she handles finding the deals and getting the funding. Today, she’s teaching you how to do the same: build your out-of-state team, scale the right way, and when (and how) to delegate so you don’t do all the work. She’s even breaking down her profit margins and revealing how much you can actually make flipping in affordable markets.

Click here to listen on Apple Podcasts.

Listen to the Podcast Here

Read the Transcript Here

Dave Meyer:
Flipping 12 houses at a time while living 2000 miles away. It sounds impossible, but today’s guest is doing it right now. She’s going to tell us how she got there after starting with just a single property she bought for less than a hundred thousand. What’s up everyone? Welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast where we teach you how to achieve financial freedom through real estate. I’m Dave Meyer, head of real estate investing here at BiggerPockets. Our guest on the show today is Dominique Gunderson, an investor who focuses on flips in New Orleans but lives a location flexible lifestyle, traveling around the country in an rv. Dominique was previously on the BiggerPockets podcast back in 2022. It was episode 5 87 and at that time she was about three years into her flipping career and was already doing five or six projects at once. Super impressive at that point. But today we’re going to hear about how she’s scaled up even further. She’s doubled that volume of flips even while managing her business from across the country. We’ll also talk to her about why she’s added a rental property portfolio in addition to her already successful flipping business. This is a very fun conversation. I think you’re going to learn a lot. So let’s bring on Dominique. Dominique, welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast. Thanks so much for being here again. Appreciate it.

Dominique Gunderson:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me back. I’m really looking forward to diving into some fun topics today.

Dave Meyer:
Yeah, you have such a cool story and approach to investing. Can you just give us a little bit of background for those who haven’t heard your previous appearances on any of the BiggerPockets podcasts?

Dominique Gunderson:
Yeah, absolutely. So I got into real estate super young right out of high school. I graduated at 17 and just knew that this was what I wanted to do and so jumped right in out of high school, got my real estate license and started learning some of the basics of just sales and marketing. From there, I jumped into the investing side and did wholesaling for a little bit to get started and build some capital, and then jumped into running my own investment company in 2019. So I have been running that since then in the New Orleans market and I don’t and have never lived in that market. So my main focus is out of state flipping own some rentals out there as well, but have pretty much just been growing in scaling since 2019

Dave Meyer:
Out of state. Flipping is just a term we don’t hear very often, so I am really eager to talk to you about that because I know a lot of people who want to get into flipping are interested in doing it passively or in a less expensive market than where they live. So what led you to going from what you were doing, which was wholesaling agent to wanting to be more active of an investor, primarily focusing on flips now,

Dominique Gunderson:
I think for me, going into getting my license and starting doing the wholesaling, that was always a means to an end for me. That was to just really learn the game and build capital. But even just from a young age, being in high school and getting interested in real estate, I always knew that I wanted to run my own company. I wanted to flip houses. I wanted to own rental properties instead of just being a middleman, whether that be an agent or a wholesaler. So for me that was just a great way to get started and to learn, but the goal of that was always to fund my future operation and vision.

Dave Meyer:
So tell us how you started long distance or out of state flipping, because it almost sounds like an oxypro, not something that you could actually do.

Dominique Gunderson:
So for me, it honestly combines the best of both worlds. I love that you can pursue an active strategy where you can make a lot of quick cash and really build your overall equity and wealth, but doing it in a more passive way where you don’t have to be on the job site every day. So that’s something that I’ve learned over time after doing it and have come to really love. But honestly, it all started just almost out of necessity. I was 21 back in 2019 when I first started my own company
And I had all my experience in Los Angeles area, southern California. So it only made sense that I would just start flipping here where I had all my contacts, but it was so expensive and just felt so out of reach for me being so young knowing that I would have to be all into a deal for minimum three or 400,000 on the low end. I didn’t have that much cash saved up, and so it just felt a little overwhelming and so it was almost a necessity for me. I had to start looking what market could I afford? What market would this be feasible for me? And New Orleans was one of the only markets that I had really good trusted contacts in. Not that they were in real estate, but my dad and his wife lived in New Orleans, and so that was just the one outstate market that I said, you know what? Even though I don’t know anybody in the game out there, I know someone. I know someone who has probably called a plumber to their house or maybe knows a person down the street that’s a real estate agent or something like that. I had some little bit of edge on the building the team side just from knowing people in the area.

Dave Meyer:
That’s awesome. So when we talked a couple years ago and when you were on the show, you were doing a lot like five or six flips at a time, right?

Dominique Gunderson:
Yes, correct. How did

Dave Meyer:
You pull that off? Is it just all networking where you just have so many GCs and contractors that you can do that kind of volume?

Dominique Gunderson:
So there’s a couple different avenues to that. I mean, one is the deal finding side, right? Keeping a good steady stream of deals coming in. Then it’s also what you mentioned, the management side, having a team to actually execute those deals. So there’s a lot of components to that. A couple years ago when we chatted, I was doing probably five or six flips at a time. We’re running 12 flips right now, and so scaled up even more and something really cool happens when you start to scale, which it sounds kind of crazy, but it actually gets easier in a lot of ways because you’re in this whole different boat of it’s not just a side hustle or a hobby, it’s a full-time business. And so in every area you have to put in full-time effort. And so let’s just say on the deal finding side, you’re going to be making connections with people who know that every time they have a deal available, you will buy it.
You are always looking for deals. You have to feed your pipeline just to keep the business going. Where if you’re only doing a couple flips a year, it’s a timing thing. You can make great networking connections, but if you’re not in that time slot of a couple months, a year where you’re looking for a new deal, you’re going to have to say no. And so your contacts aren’t as strong. They can’t be because you’re not as reliable. And same with your team members. I have multiple crews, they’re always working, always working just on my jobs and I can keep them busy. And so you build that loyalty and you can create really strong teams of people that are trusted and can do your jobs over and over again and you start creating systems and processes. And so in a lot of ways, scaling up can make things a little easier as far as the systems and teams go, but obviously it takes a lot more management and there’s a lot more headaches and problems that come up. So it’s a balancing scale

Dave Meyer:
For sure. Yeah, that’s amazing. Honestly, I’m so impressed that you said that becomes easier. It sounds so difficult to me. I want to learn more about your systems, but I think that there’s probably a lot of people listening to this right now who are really interested in this idea of out of state flipping. I’m personally interested in it. If I could figure out how to do this in a reasonable way, I’d be interested. So maybe we can actually go back a little bit and just talk about what were the first steps you took and maybe you could just provide some advice for people who would consider this strategy.

Dominique Gunderson:
Sure. Yeah. I think the absolute biggest thing, whether you’re doing one flip out of state or 10 is your team, your team on the ground because you aren’t going to be there for practically any of it. You may check in every other month or something, but you have to know in every aspect between real estate agents, contractors, project managers, lenders, everything has to be in place to make sure that the process is flowing just as well when you’re there or not there. And so that was some of the first steps for me is, okay, how can I build a team of people? Who do I need on my team and how can I find them that I can trust without me being there all the time? And that is much easier said than done it sounds like. Okay, sure. Just go start networking with people and it’ll happen, which is kind of true, but it truly is.
Looking back now from where I started, it’s such a trial and error thing. You just have to know that going in that you’re not going to just find the perfect team and everything be the same from day one and you’ll just move forward seamlessly and always work with the same people. It’s just not going to happen. You always have to be networking. You always have to be looking to build and expand your team because people will maybe be good for a couple deals and then they’ll fall off or have a personal issue come up and they can’t work with you as consistently anymore. So the networking I think was one of the big places that I started attending any sort of networking groups, whether they be digital or in person that I could and just start meeting other investors, other people in the space that I could ask for referrals or I could just meet contractors. I could meet people that I’d need to work with in person at some of these networking groups. So just thinking about who I needed and how I could find them was definitely the biggest first place I had to start.

Dave Meyer:
And so how did you find them? Because for me, I can understand and sort of wrap my head around how to network with agents. We have tools in BiggerPockets for that or even network with other investors. I’ve done some out of state brewers where I’ve networked with some contractors, but those were smaller in scale and I felt that the project scope was very clear and I knew that this contractors working with had this expertise. But how do you even go about networking with GCs in another city? Were you going to New Orleans frequently?

Dominique Gunderson:
Yeah, it’s funny to say, but I think it can be simpler than you may think. It’s obviously easy in your own market because you can just meet people randomly like you said. But
I always had somewhat of a presence in New Orleans. I mean today I go there at least once every other month for five days to a week just to kind of check in and meet people face to face. So there’s always opportunities when you’re there in person, but there’s so many online groups even that you can join today. For me, I mean the Facebook groups in the local New Orleans market are really a big thing. There’s a lot of great investing groups and like you mentioned too, BiggerPockets stuff, there’s always different groups that you can kind of join and get in to just get the conversation started with people. You may not necessarily meet the contractor that you’re looking for, but you might meet someone who’s one step away from getting you to introduction. But I mean, I’ve met some of my contractors super randomly. Some of them have literally just been working at a job across the street from my property, and you just go over there and start talking to them and ask if they’re looking for more work, if you get kind of a sense of their quality of work since they’re on another job site.
I’ve had contractors literally just walk up to me and introduce themselves to me at meetup groups. It’s been just random interactions that seem to come more and more frequently. The more you open yourself up. My team is not closed. I am not one and done set. I’m always looking to network with more people.

Dave Meyer:
Yeah. Alright, we ought to take a quick break and then we’ll be back with more of my conversation with Dominique Gunderson. We’re back talking with Dominique Gunderson on the BiggerPockets Real Estate podcast. Maybe you could just tell us Dominique, a little bit more about your first deal and how you pulled that off that might help me and maybe some other people extrapolate how you did this once and then now how you’ve sort of achieved this amazing, very impressive scale of doing it, like 12 of these at a time.

Dominique Gunderson:
Yeah, absolutely. I wouldn’t say my first deal was perfect by any means. It was far from it, but a lot of people will say it’s your first deal and it’s the best one because you got started, you made the mistakes and now it leads you to go do a hundred more. So my first deal I bought on the MLS, nothing crazy or fancy about the strategy to find it paid 51,000 for the house and ended up putting in about, I think about 45,000. We were all in just under a hundred thousand for the house and only sold it for 115,000. So after realtor fees, closing costs, stuff like that. I mean hardly made anything, made a little bit of profit but not much on the deal. But again, learned invaluable lessons that I can’t put a price tag on from just getting started and doing a deal and meeting people even. I called and talked to so many different people just on the contracting side just to give me bids

Speaker 3:
And

Dominique Gunderson:
Just learn about numbers and how people are projecting scopes of work out there. And even though I didn’t use all of them, that already gave me a bunch of different sets of numbers of how to analyze rehab costs and what things are going to cost. And funny enough, even one of the contractors who gave me a bid on that first house that didn’t do the job I reconnected with later down the line and he did probably 30 flips for me thereafter.

Dave Meyer:
Wow.

Dominique Gunderson:
So you get started somewhere, you have an actual property where you’re actually doing something with it and that’s your in to start making a lot of these connections. You have something you can talk to people about that you’re actually working on. You have a property you can ask different agents to come walk and what can I list this for? You’re making relationships and same on the contracting side. So that was my first flip again so far from perfect, but it’s such a great starting point.

Dave Meyer:
That point about having something tangible to center your conversations around is so important. I’ve stumbled into that as well. Just talking to a contractor about some theoretical property or do you want to work together? I was like, yeah, of course I want to work together but not having something to point to, can you do X job? Can you do this job by this date? It really adds a sense of urgency and tangibility to a conversation that I think makes the relationship move a lot faster. So I think that’s great advice. That deal seems great, relatively cheap, buying it for 50, 60,000. Now fast forward to today when you’re doing 12 of these, can you tell us a little bit about what your average deal in this kind of market looks like

Dominique Gunderson:
Today? I’m kind of buying in two different buckets. One would be the more entry level price point, which is more similar to that deal I just described to you my first deal. And that would be anything that’s worth when it’s done 200,000 or less. And so those are a lot of the deals that I keep for rentals and do the burr strategy on because they have good cashflow numbers at that price point. Sometimes I’ll flip them if it has a really good spread. And then the other bucket of deals I’m buying are the ones that I’m more so fixing and flipping, and those are the slightly higher end ones. Some of them have a 300 K ish resale value, but more so they’re in the four to 500 K resale value where you’re purchasing it between 202 50 and putting in 80 to a hundred. So those higher end ones are more so what I’m flipping right now,

Dave Meyer:
What’s your average margin then on these kinds of deals?

Dominique Gunderson:
So the target is always 15% return on investment, so 15% of what I put into the property. Obviously sometimes you make 10, sometimes you make 2025, but target for me is always

Dave Meyer:
15. Okay, that’s quite good. And how long are these deals taking you?

Dominique Gunderson:
That’s super dependent on the market right now. I have some that still sell in your average 30 to 45 day timeline, and we’re all into the deal from start to finish in five or six months. And I have some deals right now that the market’s slow and it’s just taking several months on the market just to get an offer

Dave Meyer:
Really.

Dominique Gunderson:
And so some of those deals are taking more like eight to nine months start to finish to be done and sold.

Dave Meyer:
And has that changed your approach, I assume if you’re continuing to do them that they’re still profitable enough to the point where you’re taking on the same volume of deals as you were maybe a year or two ago, or are you trying to scale up more?

Dominique Gunderson:
I like this range. It’s a good enough scale to where you’re doing a lot of volume. You’re able to keep your teams busy and keep people loyal to you. But it’s not so big that I’m trying to do a hundred deals a year and it’s just super unmanageable and I have to make a bunch of partnerships and have W2 employees and stuff like that. So my goal isn’t to necessarily get that big, but right around this range of having 12 to 15 projects at a time, mostly on the fix and flip side and kind of keeping the best ones for long-term rental properties.

Dave Meyer:
Awesome. Wow, and that’s incredible. Congratulations on all the progress you’ve made in just a couple of years. I’m actually curious though, you said that you’re holding some rental properties. What led to that shift?

Dominique Gunderson:
I think that’s something that’s always been a goal of mine from the beginning as well, and it was more a capital and experience thing. The more deals that you’re doing and you don’t necessarily need to flip so many per year in order to just pay your bills and live off of the income, you can kind of start thinking about holding some of the better ones for longer term rentals. And so buy properties and let the tenant pay down your mortgage for 30 years, and I’m still pretty young, so for me that’s a decent strategy to be mid fifties to 60 and have a bunch of properties that are now paid off and that can be something that I retire on.

Dave Meyer:
How are you choosing which ones you’re flipping versus holding onto if you’re, it sounds like going through somewhat of a similar process, at least on the front end of the deal.

Dominique Gunderson:
I pretty much will hold any deal that does pencil as a rental. So in my market there’s a lot of deals that pencil as flips because you may not have quite enough margin in the deal to pull out all of your capital and make it a perfect burr,
But you still have a really nice profit margin for a fix and flip opportunity. Or it might be in that slightly higher end price point that I mentioned before where even if it was a perfect burr, you could pull all your cash out, it just wouldn’t rent for enough to cashflow and make any positive cash flow. So for me, any property that is in a price point where I can realistically pull out almost all of my cash or all of my cash with a cash out refinance and it’s still cash flows at least a couple hundred dollars a month, I will always keep it as a rental.

Dave Meyer:
And how are you sort of managing the capital side of that then? Is it just making it more complicated for you in terms of getting different loans and managing your inflows and outflows of cash? Because I would imagine that it’s just adding a whole layer of complexity in another sort of business line.

Dominique Gunderson:
Definitely. It’s different and has different components for sure. On the fix and flip side and even the bur side a little bit upfront, when I’m buying the properties for and renovating with cash, I pretty much exclusively use private money. So these have just been people that I’ve connected with over the years that have cash and want to invest passively. They act just like a bank, just like a normal lender, but they’re just an private individual. So I’ll use those types of loans to purchase the properties and renovate them. Then if it’s going to become a rental and hold it long-term, we put long-term financing with a 30 year mortgage, that would be the cash out refinance. Once the property is fully stabilized and rented out, we’ll put that long-term financing on the property and use the money that you get from the cash out refinance to pay off the private lender, so that way it’s just me left on the mortgage and you’re dealing more with just a institutionalized bank or lender that you’re making the mortgage payments to every month for a 30 year mortgage.

Dave Meyer:
Dominique, I want to ask you more about how you are able to scale this business with a bigger team and more systems in place. But first we need to take another quick break. Thanks for sticking with us. Here’s more of me and Dominique talking about scaling an out-of-state fix and flip business. I want to get back to some of the stuff that you talked about earlier with achieving this level of scale. You obviously talked about systems, you talked about teams, but could you tell us a little bit about the order of operations because I am curious, you can’t do everything at once. What are some of the first steps when you said I want to go from five or six deals at a time to 12 that you’re doing now, who are the people you brought on and what systems, what software, what other tools did you need to bring on in order to ramp up each subsequent deal?

Dominique Gunderson:
I will warn you with this question, I am a very simple person. I’m not one that has all the fancy softwares and systems put together and built out all these different apps and stuff that we’re using. I’m pretty simple. I keep a lot of things on spreadsheets and just simple easy tools that anybody can build and do. But from an operation standpoint, what it looks like, and this is a big mind shift that I had to make from going from five to six to 10 to 12, is you have to build out your teams. So when you’re doing maybe like five at a time, it’s actually probably more beneficial to find one great team, one great set of everything, and just feed them as much business as you can. Keep them loyal. You can probably have a contractor. The projects are going to be at different stages that can handle that much volume. Same with the real estate agent, same with the lenders, everything. You can probably find one great team and really keep them loyal and hone in on them,
But when you scale up, you just can’t. It becomes way too much and too overwhelming for just one great set of people. So you really have to shift to that mindset of like, okay, my team is built, everything’s closed to what we were talking earlier where you’re always looking to build new teams, you’re always looking to improve, who else can I start working with and how can I make my teams better? You have multiple open slots for every position, and so there’s just more opportunity to there refine and really work with the best of the best. So for me, what that looks like is I have a couple of GCs who run all my projects, so I don’t work directly with any subs, I just work with a couple of GCs who are managing everything on the ground, and that just keeps things a lot more streamlined too.
Even just on the accounting and invoicing side, I’m just getting one to three bills throughout the projects, pretty much larger chunks. They’re keeping track of receipts and buying materials and things like that. So it just keeps things really streamlined. I just have one point of contact that I can keep in touch with daily or every other day to get updates on the jobs. And each of those GCs are managing three to five different projects all the time. And then I have a project manager role at times. I’ve had two people in this role, but I think even with a larger scale, you can probably just keep one person in this role, but this is somebody who is kind of like a third party to all of the other roles. They’re not just your contractor, just your agent. They’re not specialized in one thing, they’re just doing any and all tasks that might come up on a day-to-day basis. So it might be making deliveries, it might be putting up a lockbox, it might be turning on utilities, like anything. It could be just I’m sending you to the property to get me update photos and videos so that I can keep a tab on what’s going on or clean up if it’s a vacant house that’s been listed a couple weeks, like sweep the floors and stuff like that. So it could be anything.

Dave Meyer:
Does that person work exclusively for you?

Dominique Gunderson:
No, I’ve had a few different people in this role and it’s usually been kind of part-time.

Dave Meyer:
So

Dominique Gunderson:
I’ve typically worked with people that are within the real estate space doing something else within the space, and they’re just looking for some side part-time work.

Dave Meyer:
So I guess that role seems super crucial to me because you always have a contractor who they’re on your team, but they also, they won’t run their own business. And so I feel like it’s kind of essential to have sort of a neutral party in there who works for you and can report back on the real state of things. And not that people are being dishonest, but it’s helpful to have someone who is looking at every deal through your perspective, not just hearing it filtered through the lens of an agent or a contractor who are probably trying to do the right thing, but just have their own perspective and biases.

Dominique Gunderson:
Absolutely. And yeah, just having more eyes on things is always helpful because people see different things and it’s just like a checks and balance system for keeping tabs on things. Like you said, I can’t tell you how many times we’ve done a final walkthrough with the contractor, the project’s done, it’s ready for photos, and then I send my project manager through and I get 10 more pictures of touchup things that need to be done.

Dave Meyer:
Right. Yeah.

Dominique Gunderson:
So just having the extra set of eyes is super, super important.

Dave Meyer:
So how has this changed your role in your own business?

Dominique Gunderson:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s in a lot of ways doing this out of state will do this to you, but as you scale up, it’ll also do this to you. You have to force yourself to be more hands off and to delegate. Even if I was on the ground, I don’t think I would spend my time doing the project manager role, for example. Those are all things I could easily do if I was on the ground, but it’s not the best use of my time. And so whether I’m on the ground or not, it’s a great role to delegate. And same with general contractors. I could, if I was on the ground, run my own projects and save money, but even if I was, I don’t think that would be the best use of my time because I have to do all these other things to keep the operation growing and scaling.
So it really helps you put into perspective just being out of state what things are really important to delegate and what things are really important for you to do. So for me, the acquisitions, that’s probably the most important, super important in any fix and flip operation where you’re making your money or if you make a mistake, it’s probably made there once you bought the do for a certain price, if you were wrong about anything, you can’t fix it. I spend a lot of my time overseeing the acquisition side of things and making sure that we’re not overlooking anything on the rehab scope projections, a RV projections, and ultimately just making the final decisions on what we’re buying. And I spend a lot of time on the capital raising part as well, making those connections with individuals who are going to lend me funds. I always have funds available to be buying more and more houses. Those are two things that I would say are really important for me to make that connection for people to know me and my face and my name to continue sending me deals and continue giving me capital.

Dave Meyer:
And do you like it? It sounds just such a big shift. You’ve had to sort of almost reinvent your own business and you’re doing so much different stuff. At least in my career, I’ve found times where that happens. I just do it out of necessity and then you kind of come back and figure out like, oh, I actually should be doing something. I enjoy more. Do you feel like you’re in a place with your business that’s sustainable and that you’re enjoying?

Dominique Gunderson:
It’s such a great question. And I toy with this a lot too because on one hand I love that I can be fully remote and running this business. That’s the greatest gift to be able to have built something that I can travel, I can do whatever I want to do all the time, be my own boss at this age, what a gift to have been able to do that. And so I love that aspect of it. But at the same time, when I do get to spend time in New Orleans and I go to the ground and I’m present, I’m like, wow, this is so cool to be here.

Dave Meyer:
Yeah, it’s fun

Dominique Gunderson:
To walk my own jobs and to see what’s going on. You really feel like you’re actually a part of it instead of just kind running this remote thing from somewhere else and not hands-on seeing it. But ultimately, I think for me, it makes my business better, I think for me to not be there, to be

Dave Meyer:
Honest. Interesting. Yeah,

Dominique Gunderson:
It does. The part that has forced me to delegate and to bring on really strong team members that are great in each individual role, I think has made my business better instead of me trying to do things that I’m ultimately not best at and then just be kind of mediocre across the board.

Dave Meyer:
I resonate so much with what you said. I understand the feeling of it making you better. When I moved abroad, I had sort of the same experience, just this forcing function where you recognize what you’re good at, you are forced to become more efficient, it does make you better. But having just moved back to the us, I love being at properties. I’m so happy being able to go check out my deals and go even deals. I’m not necessarily going to buy, just going to open houses or looking at being with other investor friends who are doing deals. It is fun to be a part of it. So Dominique, in two years, you’ve made incredible progress. Again, congratulations. What’s next for you? You’ve scaled up, you’ve doubled your volume. Are you just going to keep going or what’s next?

Dominique Gunderson:
For the foreseeable future, I see myself really trying to stack up and build more rental properties and just keep the flipping operation decently stable as far as the current volume that we’re doing. And hopefully just continuing to build relationships to getting better, more consistent deal flow, continuing to make sure that we’re on top of the renovations and we’re refining, making better design decisions so that we sell faster and how can we cut our rental budgets back. So efficiency is the overall goal, I think right now.

Dave Meyer:
Well, that’s awesome. Congratulations on scaling and we’d love to have you back in a year or two or whatever just to hear what you’re up to. This is such a cool, unique part of real estate investing that we don’t hear about very often, but you’re doing it so well. So thank you so much for coming and sharing your insights and your story with us, Dominique.

Dominique Gunderson:
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me,

Dave Meyer:
And thank you all so much for joining us here on the BiggerPockets Podcast. We’ll see you again soon.

Watch the Episode Here

https://youtube.com/watch?v=kzuECmoUQA4

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In This Episode We Cover:

  • How to flip houses anywhere (and FROM anywhere!) without doing the work yourself
  • How much long-distance flips can make you in 2025 (Dominique’s profit margins)
  • Building your boots-on-the-ground team to handle renovations for you
  • When to flip vs. hold and signs a flip should become your next rental property
  • The secret to scaling your team so you can do less work and make more money 
  • And So Much More!

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March 2025 Housing Market Update: Are Price Declines Coming?

Scott Trench: How I’m Protecting My Money From “Irrational Exuberance”

Stock prices are falling, and Americans are fearful. Tariffs, trade wars, economic tension, and interest rates are putting pressure on asset prices. Commercial real estate has already crashed, but the worst may be yet to come. Home prices aren’t growing; in fact, small multifamily prices may even be declining. What should you do? We can’t provide financial advice, but Scott Trench, CEO of BiggerPockets, is revealing how he’s protecting his wealth in 2025.

A recession could be coming; we’re all aware of that. But what does this mean for real estate, stock, crypto, and gold prices? The “irrational exuberance” bubble seems to have popped after stocks hit wildly high price-to-earnings ratios, Bitcoin soared to six figures, and gold began a massive runup. Things are about to change very quickly.

Scott is putting his money where his mouth is, revealing the contrarian moves he’s making to his portfolio to keep his wealth growing during this increasingly volatile period. He’s giving his stock market prediction, interest rate prediction, and home price prediction and sharing where real estate investors should look for stellar deals as everyday Americans run away in fear.

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Click here to listen on Apple Podcasts.

Listen to the Podcast Here

Read the Transcript Here

Scott:
What’s going on everybody? I’m Scott Trench, host of the BiggerPockets podcast today. You may also know me as the host of the BiggerPockets Money podcast over there with my co-host Mindy Jensen and CEO of BiggerPockets. I’ll be filling in for Dave today who is out on a personal matter and I couldn’t be more excited to share with you today my thesis for what’s going on here in 2025. I’m a pretty big bear in many sectors of the economy and I hope that today’s discussion will give you insight into how I break down the opportunities to invest across most of the major asset classes that are available to ordinary Americans. What I’m doing in response to that analysis with my personal portfolio and the tax considerations that are in play in the context of me making real moves here in Q1 2025 with my portfolio that involve realizing gains in some cases to reallocate funds to different asset classes and sectors.
So spoiler alert, again, I’m a big bear. It’s written right there on this top of the screen here. I think we’re in a period that I’m calling irrational exuberance 3.0 and irrational exuberance refers to a state where investors are wildly overvaluing assets relative to their intrinsic or fundamental value. This book was written by a very famous economist called Robert Schiller and then published I think March, 1999, right before the.com crash. He posted an update to that book in 2008 and then he posted another oane I think in 2014. Might have to go back and check that one, in fact, check that, which obviously did not happen, but the guy is two out of three and I’m thinking about these irrationally exuberant areas of the economy across real estate stocks and other asset classes, and I think as we head into 2025, we’re seeing a lot of similarities to what Professor Schiller from Yale University called out multiple times throughout his career.
Guys, this is a presentation I prepared a slide deck. I’m going to be referring to charts and graphs throughout this discussion. I will try to be mindful of those of you who are listening in your cars via the podcast feed, but this may be one that you’d want to go back and check out on YouTube because I will be referring to these charts and graphs and you’ll be able to see where the source data comes from in many of these cases. What I’m going to do today is I’m going to do a two-part walkthrough for my macro thesis. First, I’m just going to talk about what’s happening in the major asset classes that are available to most Americans and those asset classes are cash, treasuries or bonds, residential real estate, commercial real estate stocks, Bitcoin and gold. I understand that there are many other alternatives, but those are the ones that are widely available to most Americans most of the time.
And then I’m going to talk through the areas where I see the biggest risks and opportunities in the context of what’s going on in these categories, and then I’ll talk about what I specifically have done, which is major serious, more than 50% reallocation across my holistic personal financial portfolio, the tax impact of making those changes and how I’m thinking through that. And then I’ll wrap it up by inviting feedback, debate and dialogue, and I’m sure many of you will refer back to this next year to make fun of me for how wrong I am on some of these things and how expensive my set of moves are. Alright, let’s start off with my predictions, fears, and optimism, and I’ll just get right to the headlines and come back and give you all the detail shortly after previewing those first headline. I think that interest rates are going to remain stubbornly high here in 2025 unless there’s a deep recession or we get a new fed chair appointment.
Even if that fed chair will be appointed in 2026, the simple headline of a dovish fed chair could be amid again for that. The second headline here is I fear a sharp pullback or even a possible crash in US stocks for a great number of reasons that I’ll get into in detail as we come back to this section. The third headline is that I think that residential real estate and specifically small multifamily residential properties could have already seen a serious correction in prices. For example, I just bought a property that was originally listed at $1.2 million in February, 2024 and after six price reductions, I bought it for less than the last price reduction for 20% less than its original list price, which I think they would’ve gotten in 2023. Is that a buying opportunity? The last major headline is that I believe that commercial real estate has seen significant losses and devastation in terms of valuation and that a sophisticated buyer may have major opportunities to buy at the bottom in what could be a once in a generation opportunity here in 2025.
I believe that that opportunity set will hit regionally for different markets at different times and you really got to have a pulse on whatever region you’re investing in order to take advantage of that timing in the commercial real estate sector specifically with regard to multifamily in 2025. So those are the headlines. We’ll also talk a little bit about other asset classes like Bitcoin and gold briefly. Alright, so let’s get into it and start with interest rates. What’s going on with interest rates? Well, in order to understand interest rates, we have to talk about the 10 year treasury yield, which is a key correlate to 30 year fixed rate mortgage rates and to mortgage rates in the commercial real estate sector. What I’m showing on this slide is a chart of the yield curve at two different times. One is a normalized yield curve from 2018 and you can see that the federal funds rate the overnight rate for US treasuries was 1.25%, one and a quarter, and the 10 year treasury was about 2.85%.
That’s a 160 basis point spread, 150 basis point spread. That’s a normal yield curve. You’d expect interest rates to be higher on long-term debts than on short-term debts. What we see today is a slightly inverted or flat yield curve. We see that the federal funds rate is four and a quarter today, and we see that the 10 year rate is also four and a quarter. So what’s going on here is that the market expects the Federal reserve to lower rates, so they’re buying the 10 year at a four and a quarter rate expecting that the Fed will lower rates. The problem with this is that for the yield curve to normalize such that 150 basis points separate the 10 year yield from the overnight rate, the Fed will have to lower rates six times in 25 basis point increments in order to make that happen.
If the Fed lowers rates six times in the context of current inflation numbers, it means something very bad is going on elsewhere in the economy where millions of people literally are losing their jobs. That is not a fun environment to be in. If you own assets that are correlated with interest rates, almost certainly if rates come down that rapidly and that steeply, you will see asset prices coming down with that. So I am a big bear on this. I think that a much more likely scenario is that the Fed will lower rates one, two or maybe up to three times over the next year and that the tenure will actually slowly rise another 50 to 75 basis points hovering around 5% throughout the course of 2025. That’s my base case. A ton of things can come in. This could get worse than that, right? So the Fed could lower rates no times and you could see this thing go up to 5.75% for the 10 year yield.
You could see inflation remaining stubbornly persistent with long-term inflationary pressures like boomers exiting the workforce and slowing population growth, driving up wages and prices. In many cases, you could see near term inflationary pressure also put upward pressure on interest rates. Those threats are acute from slowing inbound migration. We’re not seeing any illegal immigration as we saw that slow dramatically with the new administration. The threat of forced deportation could also reduce the population and put upward pressure on wages and therefore prices last. We could see tariffs impacting the CPI, right? When you charge people more for imports into the United States and when goods from the United States are seeing tariffs put in place as a countermeasure, you could see the cost of many goods and prices increasing here all as a reminder. If inflation is high, the Fed will tend to increase interest rates to put downward pressure on prices.
Again, the offsets of this are recession or a new fed share appointment. Next, I want to discuss the money supply here. M two specifically. I think there’s a narrative out there that it’s okay to buy assets even at extraordinarily high prices that they’re at today because of this narrative that governments just printed money and the dollar is losing all this value and so that those prices do not actually reflect the massive expansion of the money supply. I think this is a misnomer and I want to go into this briefly here. M two is a measurement of short-term liquidity positions held by America, so the cash and bank accounts, savings accounts, money market accounts, and other near-term liquidity positions here, and this did grow substantially. It grew about 39% from January, 2019 to January, 2022, and prices reflected that inflation wages and many asset prices including real estate prices reflect that expansion. But from 2022 to the present, there hasn’t been a material increase in the money supply and from 2023, January, 2023 to January, 2025, the money supply has only increased by 1.6% while inflation has materially outpaced that. So something other than the money supply is driving asset prices in the last couple of years and I think it’s a speculative bubble or worry that it’s a speculative bubble in many of those asset classes. So I wanted to preview the next section with that. All right, we got to take a quick break. We’ll be right back.
Okay, we’re back on the BiggerPockets podcast. Let’s go to the s and p 500 next here. As a first example, the s and p 500 has grown 51% in terms of market capitalization from January, 2023 to January, 2025. Remember, the money supply increased 1.6%. This went up 50%. The s and p 500 is up 2.35 times since January, 2019. As of February, 2025, the s and p 500 is trading at a 38 times price to earnings ratio per the Schiller PE index. What is the Schiller price to earnings ratio? It takes the average real inflation adjusted earnings of every company in the s and p 500 over the last 10 years. It averages out over the last 10 years and then it divides that by the current market capitalization of the s and p 500, the current price, and that normalizes all the fluctuations from wild years like 2021.
There’s always a wacko year in any 10 year period, and what you’re seeing is that the market is priced higher relative to historical earnings than at any time prior to 1999 in the.com bubble. I believe that this is a major problem here and that 2025 poses serious risks to investors in stocks, which I’ll get into here, so I will make no bones about it. I fear a potential sharp pullback or even a possible crash in US stocks in 2025, and I think the risks in this world far outweigh the possible ance for stock investors right now. Some of those risks include those historically high priced earnings ratios I just discussed slowing GDP growth we’re expected to see per the Atlanta fed a 3% first quarter GDP contraction, we’re seeing inflation remaining stubbornly high. I think the February inflation report is going to have a high 5% or even the low 6% year over year inflation rate, and that is due to factors other than the money supply expanding and specifically and in the near term, I think that the risk of inflation due to just the threat rather than necessarily the implementation of tariffs is a major issue there.
Alright, I think I told everybody at the beginning of this presentation that I’d be wrong about a few things. We recorded it on March 7th and here we are on March 12th and of course the CPI inflation report came out and came in better than expected, so completely wrong on the inflation report item here. I’m surprised I was not expecting to see February inflation come in with this kind of good news. I thought it would actually spike pretty meaningfully on tariff news, but shows you what I know and how I can be wrong immediately on many of these items here. This does not change the overall thesis that goes around with the rest of my analysis. I do believe that we are in for steadily rising inflation and a lot of upward pressure in a long-term sense and that this might’ve been a blip, but I’ll be watching it carefully and watch me be wrong on that one too.
We’re seeing rising layoffs not just across the federal government, but in many private companies. We’re seeing many companies in the s and p 500 with material earnings misses through this point in the first quarter 2025, and then there’s CNN puts together a pretty good fear and greed index, which is in the extreme fear territory right now. These are the risks that I see, and like I said, I think that they overwhelm the possible risk litigants here like AI increasing productivity and corporate profits to the tune that it wipes out all of these other things. I think that there’s a lot of benefits that AI can bring to the United States of America and to its people in terms of productivity, but I’m not convinced that those will flow directly through to the bottom line in corporations to justify this level of prices. I think that there’s a potential for a US golden age, absolutely that’s an item here, but I think that some portion of the population literally believes that all of these things will come true, and I will tell you what, we are not going to see an environment in 2025 where we have zero inflation and we implement tariffs and we have full employment and we get lower interest rates and we balance the federal budget and we see record corporate profits and we see lower taxes and we increase military spending and we have world peace and all asset classes soar in value bringing about a new American golden age.
Maybe some of those come true, maybe most of them, maybe one or two, but no way do all of those things come true. And if that’s your portfolio plan, I want to scare you a little bit. I don’t think that that’s a realistic assessment of what’s going to be happening over the next couple of years and I think that’s what this pricing level suggests. The market believes. I don’t see what else you can really assume here with a historically high price to earnings ratio, you are betting on record corporate profits likely in combination with many of these items. That’s my stance. That’s how I feel. Understand that that’s going to anger some people or make some people anxious, but it’s just how I feel. So one of the other risks I want to point out here is I think that a large portion of the United States population is investing with this VT Saxon chill mentality where it’s set it and forget it invested in index funds.
They always go up in the long run. I believe that on top of the risks that I just outlined on the prior slide, that about 50% of the US population who lean liberal, who by the way are pretty meaningfully more likely than their conservative counterparts to invest the majority of their wealth and index funds. I think a good chunk of those people are going to be asking themselves the following question, am I comfortable with leaving my portfolio, which today is 100% allocated to largely US based stocks? Am I comfortable leaving that in place at current pricing given the actions of the new Trump administration through its first six weeks? And I believe that the answer to that question is going to be no for an increasing number of those people as the months and portions of 2025 proceed here, and I think that’s a material risk to sustaining very high price to earnings ratios in the event that the right hand side of my chart here, all of the things that I just said, that good things that had to happen in 2025 don’t happen.
So again, I’m pretty worried about that and I want to put out that data. This is BiggerPockets money data. I’d love a better data set. I couldn’t find anything on the internet that discussed different investment patterns between liberals and conservatives besides my polling of the BiggerPockets audience here on YouTube. So if anyone has good data on that, I would love to see that. I also want to point out that investors are very sparingly allocated to bonds. The yield to maturity on bonds is very low. Bond yields are about 4.3% for the Vanguard total bond market index fund, which is not interesting to many of the people on BiggerPockets. It’s not interesting to younger investors, and that’s a yield to maturity. The actual income that one realizes from a bond fund is actually lower than that. And one of the reasons why bond yields are so low is because they’ve been declining for nearly 50 years on a continuous basis until the last two or three years when the feds started raising rates.
But I want to remind folks that bonds are a hedge against downward pressure and other asset classes. They’re a hedge against the Fed lowering rates in a hurry and normalizing this yield curve. If the fed lowers rates, we could see the equity value of some of those bond funds go up sharply. And so I repositioned to bonds even with those low yields as a hedge against some of the risks that I see in the current market here. We’ll talk about that in a minute. Let’s talk about residential real estate. Next, what’s going on with residential real estate, residential real estate in terms of single family homes? The case Schiller National Home Price Index, which measures the value of existing home sales over time. So it excludes new home sales. Home prices have gone up about 50% since 2019. 50% is a faster relative growth rate than the money supply.
So I do think that there is some risk in the residential real estate sector, but that 50% increase in absolute value is dramatically less over the six year period from 2019 to 2025 than the 2.3 times growth in the s and p 500. For example, in the last two years, while the s and p 500 rose 50%, the K Shiller National Home Price Index rose 5%. So housing is kind of like this Sturt in the economy. You could argue that it’s a little overpriced and that it should be more responsive to rising interest rates, which is a direct correlate to affordability in housing for this. But in terms of absolute dollars relative to the money supply housing has outpaced the money supply, but not to the dramatic degree of other asset classes, at least in the single family home price index category here. Rents have been another story here.
Rents grew about 30% between 2019 and 2022, and they’ve come down a few percentage points in terms of median rent across the United States over the last couple of years. One of the major drivers of rents coming down over the last two years in particular has been a flood of supply. We’ve actually added the most multifamily apartment units in American history in terms of supply in 2025. This impact has obviously felt differently in different regions, but it’s been an important headline here. So what I’ve found is that I have not seen major opportunities in buying single family rentals in my hometown of Denver, but I have seen as I previewed earlier, what I believe to be a big difference in the purchasing power of the buyer’s market with respect to income properties here in Denver, Colorado. So again, this is the vplex that I just purchased in a part of Denver called Barnum, which is an up and coming neighborhood that I think is going to see a material amount of appreciation over a multi-decade period.
I’ve crossed out any personally identifying information about the listing agent or the listing brokerage, and I’ve also crossed out some of the detail about the specific asset here, but I want to point out that this asset was listed at $1.2 million and again, dropped in price six times from 1.19 to 1.175 to 1.145 to 1.1 million in July of 2024 to 1.08 in November to 1.69 later that month to 1,000,050 in December, and I went under contract for this thing on January 16th for $1 million even. So that’s a decline. I believe that this property would have transacted for 1.2 to 1.25 million as recently as 2023. And if you believe me, if I am right on this, that’s a 20 to 25% drop in the value of this asset over a three to five year period. That’s a crash. I believe that income property specifically duplexes, triplex, and quadplexes, and specifically those in the $750,000 plus price point for multifamily right now in Denver is in a crash or a deep recession here, and I think it’s a great time to buy those properties.
I also worry about the value of my existing portfolio. Should I try to exit some of the properties that I bought several years ago? I wonder if I’m actually not evaluating them as conservatively as I’ve told myself I am for the last couple of years. So something interesting there. I’m cautiously optimistic that we’re at or near the bottom with respect to income properties, at least here in Denver. I would hypothesize that that same reality may be true in places like Austin, Texas, like Phoenix, Arizona, like Atlanta, Georgia, like Raleigh, North Carolina, like parts of Texas and parts of Florida and other parts of the Southeast as well. Okay, next step. Let’s talk about commercial real estate. I believe that this asset class has been absolutely devastated during the same period where the money supply increased 40% commercial real estate has declined a few percentage points. It’s down 18 to 20% from its peak valuation.
It’s down at least two to 5% from 2019 before the pandemic. So this asset class has absolutely gotten wrecked. Now, there’s a couple of different sectors within commercial real estate. So this is a chart from statista.com talks about retail office, industrial multifamily, but you can see that in every single one of these asset classes you’ve seen cap rate, which is a way to value multifamily assets increase by in some cases 30 to 40%. That’s a devastating loss. That means that the asset value normalized for income has decreased by 30 to 40%, and that is projections are actually fairly rosy. They think that the prices are going to come bouncing back in 2025 and 2026. I’m not quite as convinced by that for the projection years. So this is a deep, deep crash and I think that multifamily is going to face a toxic brew in 2025 of load maturation.
A lot of the loans that were taken out five, six years ago matured in 2024, and there’s a lot of extend and pretend going on, a lot of concessions granted by lenders. I think that at some point in 2025, as that has continued to ramp, and as we come up on one year anniversaries of extensions and those types of things, we’re going to start to see action being forced on the owners of these apartment complexes and they’re going to be forced to sell, just like the person who sold me that quadplex was forced to sell it, I believe due to market conditions here. The second thing that’s going on in addition to these load maturities wall, which by the way, a lot of people thought that was going to happen last year because that’s when you see a lot of those low maturities were actually stuck in 2024.
There could absolutely be further delays in that. Lenders are reluctant to have to foreclose on properties, so there could be a lot of noise in there. It’s going to be really hard to time this thing precisely, which is why I think you really have to know what you’re doing and really going to learn how to train yourself to spot a distressed deal or a really great deal in a lot of these markets around the country. The other thing that’s compounding the problems here in multifamily is the declining rents that we talked about when rents go down and people are willing to pay less per dollar of income that destroys asset values Here in the multifamily sector, one of the things that keeps rents from growing is when new apartments are constructed, when a new apartment is constructed, that’s nice and new and swanky in downtown Austin, the wealthiest or highest earners who are willing to spend on luxury apartments and move into that vacating the next apartment down, then the next people move into that and that chain reaction results in lower housing costs all the way down the stack.
And that’s why you’re seeing Austin, Texas rents reportedly down 22% year over a year. Austin, Texas is a lot of good things going for a lot of people will move into Austin, Texas over the next five to 10 years, but no metro grows at 7% per year. And when you increase your housing stock and multifamily by 7%, you will see rents coming down within that year. Last year they added 10% of their existing housing stock with a similar number of units here. So that’s going to take a toll on apartment valuations and you’re going to see rents go down in Austin. You’re going to see valuations for apartment complexes go down, and that could be a major buying opportunity for folks who go in now as opposed to a few years ago. So I think that’s going to be one of the most extreme examples in the country.
But you can see that Phoenix also is going to have a high percentage of its existing housing units added in terms of new multifamily stock. You see Charlotte way up there, you’ll see Raleigh, North Carolina way up there and in other markets, this impact will be negligible, right? New York is not going to see the same problems for downward pressure on rents as a place like Austin, Texas, or Phoenix, at least not from supply. Other considerations with demand come into play, but you won’t see massive supply forcing rents down in some markets around the country. So it’ll be a mixed bag regionally, but I think this is a big opportunity and you can bet that I’m starting to look at as many offering memorandums from syndicators and apartment complex buyers who are purchasing these types of assets in Austin, in Raleigh, in Phoenix, here in Denver, in my hometown and in a couple of other markets around the country because of this dynamic. All right, we’ve got to take another quick break. This week’s bigger news is brought to you by the Fundrise Flagship Fund, invest in private market real estate with Fundrise flagship fund checkout fundrise.com/pockets to learn more. We’ll be right back.
All right, thanks for sticking with us. Let’s jump back into my macro market outlook for 2025. Alright, last asset class I want to touch on is Bitcoin. I’ll also throw gold into this discussion. These assets are exploding in value and let’s be very, very clear. This is not just a response to the money supply. If Bitcoin and gold were truly inflation hedges, they would be rising in conjunction with the money supply and holding their value relative to inflation. They are not. They’re far, far outpacing growth in the money supply. In terms of asset appreciation, Bitcoin has grown 900% in the last five years. While the money supply has grown 40% gold has paced the s and p 500 in terms of the rate of its price growth over the last five, six years. And it has grown about 40, 50% in the last two years.
Actually had a big spike here in February and March in addition to being up almost 30% year over year, January, 2024 to January, 2025. So whatever these assets are, golden Bitcoin, they are not stores of value or hedges of inflation right now. There’s clearly something else going on. I’d call it speculation. I’m worried about it. I own no gold. I own no Bitcoin. Let’s talk next about my portfolio, the response to these situations and my tax philosophy. So what am I doing? I’m playing a lot of defense, by the way, this excludes my primary residence. So my financial portfolio is 30% in residential real estate, essentially all here in Denver, and including another major piece that is a rental property that I just purchased here in Denver. That property I just showed you there, the quadplex in downtown, I’m still 30% in index funds, but that’s a major departure from what was previously almost 75% of my portfolio and index funds.
I’m 30% in cash. That’s a huge cash position for me, and I’m 10% in bonds having reallocated 40% or 50% of my respective retirement account portfolios and HSA investment portfolios to bonds. I’ve stopped buying stocks and I’m stockpiling additional cash. I sold a huge percentage of my after tax index funds and I will pay taxes on those gains I told you about that paid off quadplex, reallocated those properties. I will likely take some of this cash and return it to private lending. I was doing hard money lending or private lending last year. I’ll likely do another one of those. And I’m reviewing every commercial real estate pitch I can get my hands on for office or apartment complex acquisitions in the hardest hit markets. Okay, let’s talk about taxes here. If you rebalance or reallocate your portfolio, you need to understand that there will be tax consequences for that, and those are real.
If one has a hundred thousand gain, for example, and you pay tax and you invest a $65,000 after tax balance into the market, it’s not one-to-one after tax, it’s much worse. That tax drag will grow that $65,000 to $168,000 over the next 10 years. The a hundred K, if you just never realized the gain would grow to $259,000 over that same time period. And if you were to pay tax at the same marginal rate, you would not be left with $168,000. You’d actually have more at this point. So it is a real inefficiency to make moves in your portfolio willy nilly here. I made my moves despite knowing this for three reasons here. First, I’m optimizing for post-tax net worth that I can spend or use today, not the terminal number 10 years or 30 years from now in my portfolio. That’s a major factor.
I want this number because the $65,000 after tax is what I can actually use to pay for trips or vacations or those types of things today in my personal life with complete freedom. The second reason I was willing to make this tax consideration is because I believe that in the future, taxes will go up, and that will also include adjusting for inflation here. So I believe that, for example, when I go to sell this $259,000 portfolio in 10 years, my tax rate could be 30, 40% at that point, which actually makes this a better after tax move in some ways, or at least minimizes that tax impact. So that’s a fundamental long-term bet. About half of the BiggerPockets money. Audience agrees that tax rates will be going up long-term and a slightly less than half think I’m crazy and think they’ll be about the same.
I also only realize these gains. I’m only doing these moves because of how I feel about the broader market, and I believe that I’ll be getting a better risk adjusted return with the reallocation, which will offset some of that tax impact over the next couple of years. Hopefully that makes sense, everybody. But yes, I thought about taxes in this. If you are considering making big portfolio moves, you definitely want to talk to a tax planner. We’ve got a bunch on BiggerPockets. You go to biggerpockets.com/taxes or you go to biggerpockets.com and on the nav bar it will say Tax pros. Just click on that and you’ll be able to find several to interview and think through any considerations. You also find financial planners who can talk to you about certain moves. So that’s the show. That’s what I have today. I know that a couple of the moves that I’m making could be missed opportunities.
If the market continues to compound for the s and p 500, I could be way less wealthy over the next 10 to 20 years having sold. Now, I know that people will disagree. I know that some people will laugh at me. I know some people will get angry with me, and some people will do the digital equivalent of telling me that I should know better than to attempt to time the markets or make drastic moves like this based on macro conditions. And I also know that now that I’ve actually acted on these and now that I’ve actually given this presentation, they are sure to be immediately wrong and I’ll be humiliated and embarrassed by market behavior over the next year. I hope that at the very least, I get some thoughtful and realistic challenges from everybody who’s watching this. And I specifically and am most for challenges to my fundamental observation about the money supply.
This money supply observation is really driving a lot of the rest of my thesis here. I believe, again, that the growth in asset values in the last two to three years is due to an extraordinary amount, amount of speculation and not growth in the money supply. And if somebody has a counterpoint to that specifically with a different definition of the money supply, I’d be very grateful to hear that and could update my thoughts and feelings on the market accordingly. So please link to that in the comments section here on YouTube or again, send me an [email protected]. Thank you so much for listening to me today. It’s a true honor and privilege to step in for Dave and to share my views on the macro environment with you. Again, please feel free to reach out with any questions.

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In This Episode We Cover:

  • Scott’s exact portfolio allocation: what he’s selling and what he’s holding NOW
  • The speculative bubble that could be very close to (if not already) popping
  • Will interest rates rise further despite market volatility?
  • The biggest buying opportunities for investors to score killer deals on investment properties
  • The critical risk to index funds that investors MUST be aware of
  • Could commercial real estate prices crash even more, creating substantial potential margins for investors?
  • And So Much More!

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March 2025 Housing Market Update: Are Price Declines Coming?

Pro’s Guide to Property Management: Work Less, Make More from Your Rentals!

Property management can make or break your real estate portfolio, and most new investors don’t know where to start. Do you hire a property manager or self-manage your rental(s)? How do you know a property manager will ensure your rental is performing instead of just collecting a monthly fee? Should you use a local property management company or a national chain?

The real question: who will make YOU more money and keep your rental on track with your goals?

Want to spot an average property manager vs. one that builds your wealth? Follow Selali Kalevor’s advice. He’s not only a property manager himself but an “upside” investor as well, who knows what it takes to make not only his clients’ properties perform but also his own. He shares the key questions to ask ANY property manager and must-know tips for self-managing rentals.

Plus, Dave and Selali describe the one thing that makes a property manager a massive value to rental property investors, and if your manager can’t do this, you might as well find a new one. 

Click here to listen on Apple Podcasts.

Listen to the Podcast Here

Read the Transcript Here

Dave:
Would hiring a property manager cost you too much money or would it actually make you more money? Today I’m going to talk to a real property manager for inside information on who needs a property manager, how to ensure your property manager is working towards your goals as an investor, and which skills even self-managing landlords can use to increase their rents and reduce tenant turnover. Hey everyone, it’s Dave. I’m the head of real estate investing here at BiggerPockets where we teach people how to achieve financial freedom through real estate investing. And on this show I’m going to help shed some light on an area that can feel like a bit of a mystery box for some investors. Property management. The question of whether you need to hire a property manager can generate a lot of strong opinions on both sides. So I want to go right to the source and talk to someone inside the business who can give us some straight talk.
Selali Kalevor is joining us on the show to do just that. He’s a property manager in the Seattle area and is also a real estate investor himself. He’s even worked in a couple other areas of the real estate industry, so he’s really seen the value of a great property manager from a bunch of different angles. And today I’m going to ask Sali, which vetting questions will reveal if a property manager can actually execute on your business plan as an investor. The conversations you need to have with your property manager to maximize performance and which professional property management techniques and tricks you can probably learn yourself. And just as a reminder before we start the conversation, if you’re happen to be looking for a property manager, BiggerPockets can help you find one, just go to biggerpockets.com/management and you can find top rated professionals in the space. I’ve actually found property managers myself this way. It’s a great tool. With that, let’s get into my conversation with Sali Cavo Sali, welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast. Thank you for being here.

Selali Kalevor:
Thank you for having me Dave. It’s a pleasure.

Dave:
So tell us a little bit about yourself. How are you involved in the real estate investing industry?

Selali Kalevor:
Definitely entry into the real estate world. I actually have a background in finance and investments circa middle school. I watched The Pursuit of Happiness, if you’ve heard of that movie, and I was
Motivated to become a stockbroker. So at my earliest opportunity in my early twenties earned my stockbrokers and an investment advisor’s license, and within a few years I had an itch for more ownership being more hands-on and I couldn’t really put my finger on what I was looking for. But ultimately that spurred into a loan signing agency circa 2019, which of course, as you can imagine with Covid interest rates exploded exponentially and through thousands of real estate transactions and settlement statements, I was able to really see the impact of what real estate investing could do for your financial future. So I became fully sold, started my investing journey in the early 2020s, and then decided I needed to partake in a new chapter of my life in property management here Q1 2024.

Dave:
Wow, that’s a pretty interesting, and it’s definitely not a common path that we hear. We do hear people go from corporate life to investing, but I’m curious about the property management side and why you’re scaling that particular business. But before we do, so what kind of investing have you done since you got the itch?

Selali Kalevor:
As of right now, I’m currently renting midterm and short term with the objective of converting into long-term rentals. So two parcels, very similar quarter acre parcels, three bedroom, one bath, about three hours south of us here in Seattle and Vancouver, Washington. Once we can get some more preferable interest rates, looking to get those refinanced down, pull out some equity and due to some zoning changes, it looks like we can add two ADUs on the quarter acre parcels. So we’re hopefully going to see some large appreciation here in the next couple of years.

Dave:
Awesome. I mean this is a perfect example of what we’ve been calling on the show recently, Sali Upside Deals when you can find opportunities right now that are good, like you said, you’re turning ’em using them as short term midterm rentals to service the debt carry these properties because you’re looking forward to some big upside one if and when interest rates come down, but two zoning upside, it sounds like it’s going to allow you to turn it from, sounds like two units to potentially up to six units.

Selali Kalevor:
You got it.

Dave:
Awesome. Okay, so that’s what you’re doing on the investment side, but I understand that you’re sort of scaling a property management business. Is that here in Seattle?

Selali Kalevor:
That is correct. So currently I’m working with Real Property Management. It’s a franchise development property management company. It’s national. We have more than 300 locations owned by small business owners throughout the nation. You have currently just over 500 homes. Wow. Looking to scale moving into small commercial space as well. So hopefully we can get to a thousand units here in the next three years. That’s one of our loftier goals.

Dave:
This seems like a pretty big change from being a stockbroker. What about this business was appealing to you?

Selali Kalevor:
So ultimately having a loan signing business was nice and all, but I realized through having discussions with real estate investors, buyers and sellers, the true outcomes of owning real estate, seeing people make massive appreciation on their properties by redeveloping them, owning properties for 10, 20, 30 years, cashing out their properties to reinvest in dream homes or reinvesting in apartment complexes. I’ve seen thousands of different opportunities as a loan signing agent working here in Seattle. So that came for me to realize, wait a minute, this is very impactful, especially during covid, we’re seeing, especially in the Seattle area, appreciation of 20, 25% year over year. So when I’m seeing on paper the outcomes of these deals, being able to walk inside a lot of these constructions and seeing them from the beginning of purchase and then maybe six months later becomes a lovely rental in the community. So seeing those changes really was a big motivator for me in making a pivot.

Dave:
Awesome. So I want to help our audience understand some of the pros and cons of property management. A lot of folks I believe start by self-managing, but in this day and age, I think more and more people are looking at out of state or long distance investing to find places that cashflow or maybe are more affordable but are a little hesitant about the property management piece. It feels like a sticking point for a lot of folks. So maybe you could just tell us a little bit about what are the big variables and factors that investors should think about when considering hiring a third party property manager?

Selali Kalevor:
It starts with asking yourself a few questions. First few questions I would ask would just be threefold. Number one, what is your risk tolerance? Number two, what is the opportunity cost of time to manage the rental yourself? The average D iyer is going to spend about 40 to 70 hours a year managing their property. You can definitely do it or you could reinvest that opportunity cost potentially in the index stock market and self-education in your work, in your family. So these are a few questions that I would ask would be focusing on the macro goals. What is your short-term, long-term midterm goals? What’s your risk tolerance, what’s your opportunity cost? And it just starts with why.

Dave:
That’s great advice and I think it’s the same thing that we talk about on figuring out what kind of deals you want to buy or market you want to select it. Really there’s no shortcut to thinking and sort of being a little bit introspective and thinking about what you really want and that has to be the basis of your search for really anything in this industry, whether it’s deals, markets, or it sounds like property managers, but sali, how do you know who to believe? Because I would imagine if I go up to someone and say, Hey, my goal is to rent this out for $5,000 in a month, most people are going to be like, yeah, I got that. So how do you check their actual ability to execute rather than just be a good salesperson?

Selali Kalevor:
Personally? One thing I use just in my life in general when I’m looking at competent professionals is how granular can they be about describing the success that they expect they can achieve for you? To your point, if you say, Hey sala, I need you to rent out my property in Redmond for $5,000 a month. I say I can do that. Or I could say, Hey, lemme take a look at a few comparables not only on market but those that are within our own portfolio and I’m going to say, Hey, specifically Dave, here’s one property that’s a quarter mile away from you that rented out leased out at $5,000 a month here in June, 2024. I’m going to say, Hey, we also have a about three blocks away from you internally in our portfolio, similar square footage, beds and bathrooms that we rented out within 45 days for this price. Now we can make at least an estimated judgment that if we’ve done it before, we can do it again. So the key is how realistic is it that I can achieve this goal and how detailed can this person be about their ability to execute on that goal?

Dave:
That’s really helpful. I think that the level of specificity is a really good advice. I’ve also found that people who say no and are more vocal about the things they can’t do tend to be the people who are a little bit more reliable and trustworthy. So if you throw out a number and they say, no, that’s not realistic, I actually want to work with that person, even if they’re saying, I can’t achieve your goal, but it’s because your goal is just not realistic in the market and I’m not going to promise you something that I can’t deliver on. And maybe they share some anecdotes or stories about other times that they tried to list something for too high and it either got a bad tenant or sat on the market too long. So I think those types of things are really important to people in evaluating it.
So Sali, I am curious to hear more about why you went with a franchise and how our audience can evaluate small versus medium versus large national style property managers. But first we have to take a quick break before we hear from our sponsors. I want to remind everyone that BP Con, the BiggerPockets conference is back in 2025 and this year we are heading to Las Vegas beginning at February 3rd. So already tickets are on sale for early bird pricing where you get a hundred dollars off your tickets for a great opportunity to build your network, be among like-minded investors, hear from some of the best brightest names in the industry and have a lot of fun. Honestly, BP Con is a great time. I look forward to it every single year. If you want to grab your early bird ticket, just head to biggerpockets.com/conference. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m here with Sali Cavo and we are talking property management. Before the break, we were talking about how to vet a property manager just in your one-on-one conversations, but I want to turn the conversation sali to a bit more about the profile of companies. What are the pros and cons of different styles and scales of property management companies?

Selali Kalevor:
Me personally, I believe the key is relationship management. One big component of identifying a mutually beneficial property manager to work with is realistically how well do you like them, right?

Dave:
Yes,

Selali Kalevor:
Totally. It seems

Dave:
Very simple. Yes, I totally agree with

Selali Kalevor:
You. Yeah. Do you like them? There’s clients that I golf with. There’s clients that I’ll sit out after work three hours to talk about cashflow strategies, redevelopment strategies. I believe the key, it really is the relationship, right? How well does that person going to work with specifically know your goals? Why do you own the property? What is the five-year plan? What’s the 10 year plan? Are we looking at an appreciation play, a cashflow play a tax minimization play? Do we have other parties involved in this deal, business partners, trustees? Are we looking to exchange this property into a potential small commercial asset in the next five years? Is the interest rate environment a consideration? These are insightful questions that I think are significantly more important than the early questions a lot of people like to ask specifically in regards to pricing just because if you look around the blocks in Seattle, especially on the west side, you can see different constructions, different years and to be able to effectively manage that just takes setting expectations and knowing the goals of both the tenants and the owners and being ultimately just very transparent.

Dave:
That’s the best advice. I’m so happy you said that. The most underrated thing is just like, do you get along with this person? Because real estate, it’s not complicated, but there are inevitably challenges you’re going to have these times when unfortunately someone doesn’t pay or something breaks and it’s the middle of a snowstorm and your heat goes out. These are stressful scenarios and you want to be working with someone who’s going to have a similar approach to this to you. You don’t want someone who’s going to get overly flustered or not pay attention. You want someone who’s going to treat these scenarios in a way that you’re comfortable with and sometimes with a property manager, you’re going to have to have uncomfortable conversations, which is true of any business, any colleague that you trust. Sometimes you have to have a hard, tough conversation and being with someone that you actually like you want to hang out with and that you have mutual respect for, I think is just an absolutely vital part of the vetting process.
So I have two more questions I want to ask you about this sali, and the first one is about size because I totally agree the personal thing is really important. The other thing though is in any one market that I invest in, I’m a small fish. I don’t have a lot hundreds or thousands of properties. And so I’ve found sometimes that if I go to a property manager that has thousands and thousands of units, they’re very professional, they often have better systems in place, but I’m just so low down on their priority list that it doesn’t make me feel great and it’s not on them. If they have a client that has 500 units, they should probably service that person first. That’s what I would do if I was in their position. But I’ve found personally more success finding people who are at a similar proportionate scale where it’s like I’m kind of small and trying to grow and I find a property manager who’s small and start trying to grow, and that creates this mutual incentive and a mutual alignment about where we’re trying to go with our respective businesses. I’m curious what you think about that. If you notice something similar, feel free to disagree.

Selali Kalevor:
Definitely. So to that point from a national standpoint in the specifically the residential property management world, do the diversity of expectations is quite difficult to deliver on all fronts, especially for landlords. What do I mean by that? We’ve seen a lot of private equity entrances into property management as well, and what that means is we’re typically going to have an alignment with shareholder interests, profit motives for example. So what that means is essentially how do we drive up margins, drive down costs? Now, the reason I’m very big on the relationship aspect of things is I know to an extent the 30 year plan of most of my clients that want to hold long-term, Hey, I want to give this property off to my child. Hopefully in the next 20 years I’m using this property to potentially 10 31 exchange into a different MSA. So one thing that’s very hard to track on a larger scale, just in my personal opinion, is those specific goals.
Hey Dave, why do you own these properties in Denver? I’m very curious because I’m the type of guy, reach out to your CPA and financial advisor and see how we can work together. These are specific services that a property manager may not be able to charge you for Dave, but they may be motivated to go out of their way to help you because they know you personally. They’ve shaken your hand, they’ve looked you in the eyes. So on a smaller scale, I like to work with property managers who have a footprint of about 25 to 30 miles when we’re looking at least specific to our metro here in Seattle because that allows us to be able to drive to all of our properties, meet our owners, meet our tenants, and be very personable at scale. That’s quite difficult to replicate. So the last point I’ll make is a lot of folks like to ask, how many properties do you manage or how many properties do each of your property managers manage? I would flip that question to ask more specifically, how happy are the clients that the property manager is managing? We are big on Google reviews. We try to keep at least a 4.95 star rating and I would urge investors to look specifically for landlord reviews, investor reviews and tenant reviews, right? Anybody who’s able to make all three parties happy, I would say gives you a strong chance of achieving your goals and making you happy as well.

Dave:
That’s very good advice. The way I sort of look at running a rental property business is that there’s two different sets of tasks that need to be done. One I would say is the day-to-day operations management, like talking to the tenants, leasing out, handling maintenance requests. That’s what most people call property management, that sort of thing. But perhaps the more important part is what people in finance or in other types of asset classes would call management, right? Or you hear that term talked about a lot in commercial, which is like, what is the best way to operate this property as a business? Do we do a renovation? Are we going to add an A DU? When’s the right time to buy and sell? And for me, basically one of the reasons I took so long to hire property managers is because I just didn’t feel like I could find someone who could help me with that second part. There are more people who can do the property management day-to-day stuff. I find it very difficult to find people who can help you think like an owner and not just do the thing right in front of them, but take this bigger, longer term view of your asset and be like, how are we going to maximize this piece of land, this property, this business for 20 years? So I’m curious what you think about this sali, but we do have to take a quick break. We’ll be right back.
Welcome back everyone. I am here with Ali and we are talking about property management. Before the break, I was about to ask Ali what he thought about sort of the day-to-day operation part of property management versus the asset management piece. And I was hoping he could give us some guidance on how to think through and maybe not just screen property managers for the asset management piece, but how as an investor it’s also your job to effectively communicate your goals and desires. So Sali, maybe you can help us understand how to build that sort of secondary and at least in my opinion, more important part of the relationship between investor and property manager.

Selali Kalevor:
Definitely. This is actually a bit home for me. I’m definitely the finance and numbers nerd. I love that conversation about how an asset performs. As a matter of fact, we just had a discussion as a team last month with a commercial apartment owner who was a DIYer. It’s hard to say exactly when you need a property manager, but this individual is self managing more than 30 units by himself in a singular apartment.
So he reached out, he said, Hey Sali, I believe I may need a bit of help. It doesn’t seem like I’m performing as well as I should. So I said, Hey Mr. Client, your carrying occupancy is 77% stabilized occupancy is 93% in our area. You’re losing about $185,000 a year in vacancy. Our charge to you would be 90,000. You’d be able to distribute an additional a hundred thousand dollars a year in income by using professional management, right? When we talk about opportunity costs, and this was a very sharp individual owned a law firm, retired and said, I’m going to diversify my income in the stock market and real estate and I have enough cash to buy an apartment complex and has been self-managing, but he’s losing almost $200,000 a year due to self-managing this asset. So when we kind of break first principles thinking, why are we doing what we’re doing?
Alright, I bought an asset, a commercial asset of which I’m using to generate income for myself. How do I maximize the income of this asset? Well, you can do it yourself and try and save a few dollars, but you may end up losing a lot more than hiring a professional to get you that extra income. So I could speak to you for hours upon hours about asset management. I would say that’s something I’m very passionate about as well, but I try to be very efficient with my conversations, focus on goals. Maybe we talk about that room that we want to keep purple because we raise one of our children in that room and is very sentimental. Or I’m speaking to Dave who has multiple properties looking for ways in which we can maximize appreciation, maybe exchange them, increase cash flows, redevelop at adu. So you have to be versatile. My one key to anybody who’s looking for a property manager that may be more adept in the numbers is to really investigate their competence, their granularity and execution will indicate their conviction in getting you that outcome.

Dave:
I find that there’s just kind of this philosophical alignment or conversation that has to happen. I was driving around with one of my property managers not that long ago. He’s just sort of telling me about one of the properties and saying, oh, this thing came up. Do you want to handle it? I was like, something for a hundred dollars. And I was like, man, you don’t need to ask me about that. Just do what you think is best. And he was saying, most owners, they beat me up if I spend 50 bucks or 25 bucks to just handle something. And I was just like, man, I am trying to own this asset for 20 years. Don’t worry about $50 if it’s going to help maintain the property, keep the tenants happy, make it safe, make it comfortable, just spend the money. So we kind of had this just philosophical conversation and I think we left it him understanding me just a lot better and what I was trying to accomplish and he could now better manage my properties.
Whereas there are people who just want to know about every $10 that goes out of the door. And again, it goes to this idea of finding someone who you like but also has and can execute on the vision that you’re trying to enact. The other thing here that you just mentioned that I think is so important is I get the idea that many people don’t want to hire a property manager because it’s expensive. I started by self-managing and I think it’s a great way to start for a lot of people, but I do recommend people really do the math on that because it is not as cut and dry as most people think it is that you hire a priority manager, you automatically make less money because that’s only true if you’re a good property manager. And I’ve definitely been guilty of being a bad property manager at some points just because you get busy and things come up and you don’t handle things as efficiently as a professional might or you’re not staying on top of your rent. So really want to echo what Sali said there about just really do the math and figure out if you’re being as efficient as possible.

Selali Kalevor:
I love that you mentioned that ultimately because in terms of your relationship with your property manager there, one thing I like to tease my clients with is ultimately are you looking for an advisor or an assistant, right? Because in the property management world, there is both.

Dave:
Oh man, I choose advisor all day long. I get these emails that it’s like, there is a dishwasher that broke. What do you want to do? It’s like, well, tell me what the options of what you would do. You do this all day long and I’m 99% of the time going to just say, go for it. You’re there. You saw what’s happening. Is it repairable? Do you need a replacement? How much is it going to be replaced? That kind of information upfront is really what makes it better, because otherwise, if I’m still making every decision, then it’s not really saving me time. I’d rather just self-manage, just like you said, it’s just having an assistant, not actually someone who’s helping guide your investing now for slowly, for people who do want to self-manage, which is totally a good strategy. Again, I did it myself for 10 years. Are there any tips you have for people that would allow them to be more efficient or to gain some of the efficiency that a professional property manager

Selali Kalevor:
Offers? As a personal investor as well? I’d say the internet is a plentiful resource to give you at least the how to do with platforms like BiggerPockets. Of course, you’re going to have a lot of the free resources you need to get, call it 90 to 99% there. This is definitely a doable process for yourself, but do you have the resources to commit? Is this a sensible component of your mental real estate to allocate? Should you invest this time in doing leasing, doing showings, doing tenant communications, doing maintenance, doing rent ready prep, navigating through contractors? If you’re going to spend anywhere from, call it 30 to 70 hours a year on this property, is it truly worth your time? Break down your W2 income or your 10 99 income, what’s your hourly rate? So I would say be realistic with yourself and say, Hey, is this something that may better yet be something I can delegate as another vehicle of my financial independence? Because you ask yourself, why do you hire a financial advisor or a CPA or attorney? These are all vehicles of helping you get to financial freedom. So if that is your primary goal, it is about delegation, delegate the duties that are not necessarily the best or most advantageous use of your time.

Dave:
This is the whole game, right? It’s just figuring out where you should be spending your time and how to offload it. And that is one of the things that’s just, it is easier said than done. I know it sounds easy, like, oh, just figure out what good at and then delegate everything else. It’s not that easy. So I just want to call that out to everyone. If you’re trying to figure that out, it’s hard to figure out where to spend your time and even when you figure out things that you’re perhaps not good at or maybe you just don’t enjoy, it’s still hard to find people to be able to do that. But that’s sort of the lifelong or career long journey of being investor is continuously optimizing that. So very glad you said that. Thank you. So Ali, before we get out of here, any other last thoughts on property management you think our audience should know?

Selali Kalevor:
I’d say get to know your local property managers, why they do business, what motivates them. But if I can give one takeaway to the audience, give a little bit of value, really focus on the why rather than how much. I have a lot of conversations on price to give you the easy answer. You’re going to pay eight to 10% monthly and 50% to a hundred percent of first month’s rent. That’s a meat and potatoes. I think the more important you want to ask yourself is why do I have this asset and who can help me get to a successful outcome in the next year, five years, 10 years? Because as you’re well aware, Dave, there’s hundreds of thousands of outcomes you can have with real estate. So focus on the why and then the who will come.

Dave:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Sali. This has been a great conversation. We really appreciate it.

Selali Kalevor:
Thank you, Dave. It’s been a pleasure.

Dave:
And thank you all so much for listening. We appreciate all you being here. And if you’re interested in working with great professional property managers like Sali, we have a tool on BiggerPockets where you can do that for free. I will put a link to our property manager finder in the show notes below, or you could just find it on biggerpockets.com as well. Thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets podcast. We’ll see you next time.

Watch the Episode Here

https://youtube.com/watch?v=tjYYZo9QKIA

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In This Episode We Cover:

  • Crucial questions to ask a property manager to see if they’re worth the fee
  • Hiring a local vs. national property management company (and what to check before you hire them)
  • The type of “manager” that will make you more money with less stress 
  • Signs that you should (or shouldn’t) be managing your properties yourself 
  • The #1 most important factor when hiring a property manager
  • And So Much More!

Links from the Show

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